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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 23rd 07, 03:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.aerobatics,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Dudley Henriques[_2_]
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Posts: 2,546
Default Rolling a Non Aerobat 150



Cox wrote:
If you do manage to get out of a spinning aircraft, I wouls estimate close
to a 100% better chance of survival if you have a chute on. I sure would
hate to be the person who was able to get out of the so called "impossible
aircraft to get out of" only to find they didn't have a chute on.

Wear a chute, what can it hurt?

Adam

Adam Cope
www.dcaerobatics.com
703-623-9445



I totally agree with this. The " you'll never get out of this airplane
because of the door" routine is something I've heard repeated many times
through my career teaching aerobatics. My standard answer and "lecture"
on this issue is as follows;
For spins, even if the regulations don't call for chutes, I always
recommend wearing them. I always had chutes available for whatever
aircraft we were using for spin training.
A lot has been written and said about the difficulties involved in
getting out of Aerobats, Citabrias, and Decathlons.
There is no doubt that especially with a structural failure, exiting one
of these aircraft could be iffy. That's why any good instructor not only
supplies chutes for spin training, but as well performs a complete
egress brief specific to aircraft type to the point where once the bail
out call has been made, each occupant knows what the exit procedure will
be. This is especially critical in tandem aircraft.
I should mention that even with the most complete egress briefing, there
is STILL an element of doubt that a successful exit from these airplanes
can be executed in the time available under extreme g in a post
structural failure.
The factors involving a successful bail out are so diverse that there
are just no guarantees.
In the Pitts S2 for example, if the upper wing fails, the flying wires
will most likely remain attached and the upper wing will beat the
occupants to death before a bail out can be achieved.
All this being considered, the use of chutes is not only recommended,
but in my opinion a necessary part of every non- standard flight whether
it be aerobatics or spin training.
The bottom line is that wearing a chute gives you a fighting chance for
survival. Not wearing a chute gives you no chance at all.
Its a smart pilot who takes advantage of all available options!
Dudley Henriques



Ads
  #22  
Old March 23rd 07, 04:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.aerobatics,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
john hawkins
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Posts: 69
Default Rolling a Non Aerobat 150


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...


Cox wrote:
If you do manage to get out of a spinning aircraft, I wouls estimate
close to a 100% better chance of survival if you have a chute on. I sure
would hate to be the person who was able to get out of the so called
"impossible aircraft to get out of" only to find they didn't have a
chute on.

Wear a chute, what can it hurt?

Adam

Adam Cope
www.dcaerobatics.com
703-623-9445



I totally agree with this. The " you'll never get out of this airplane
because of the door" routine is something I've heard repeated many times
through my career teaching aerobatics. My standard answer and "lecture" on
this issue is as follows;
For spins, even if the regulations don't call for chutes, I always
recommend wearing them. I always had chutes available for whatever
aircraft we were using for spin training.
A lot has been written and said about the difficulties involved in getting
out of Aerobats, Citabrias, and Decathlons.
There is no doubt that especially with a structural failure, exiting one
of these aircraft could be iffy. That's why any good instructor not only
supplies chutes for spin training, but as well performs a complete egress
brief specific to aircraft type to the point where once the bail out call
has been made, each occupant knows what the exit procedure will be. This
is especially critical in tandem aircraft.
I should mention that even with the most complete egress briefing, there
is STILL an element of doubt that a successful exit from these airplanes
can be executed in the time available under extreme g in a post structural
failure.
The factors involving a successful bail out are so diverse that there are
just no guarantees.
In the Pitts S2 for example, if the upper wing fails, the flying wires
will most likely remain attached and the upper wing will beat the
occupants to death before a bail out can be achieved.
All this being considered, the use of chutes is not only recommended, but
in my opinion a necessary part of every non- standard flight whether it be
aerobatics or spin training.
The bottom line is that wearing a chute gives you a fighting chance for
survival. Not wearing a chute gives you no chance at all.
Its a smart pilot who takes advantage of all available options!
Dudley Henriques


Dudley,
Could you give some specifics about exiting a citabria?
I used to do aerobatics in one and always wore a chute. I never suspected
that I would have trouble exiting if I pulled the door hinge pins, I thought
the door would vanish and leave me a big hole to climb out.
The only serious instructor I had was in a Stearman and he never discussed
exiting in case of trouble.
Obviously I was completely ignorant. Better to learn late than never.





  #23  
Old March 23rd 07, 04:55 AM posted to rec.aviation.aerobatics,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
george
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 794
Default Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

On Mar 23, 1:36 pm, "Cox" wrote:
If you do manage to get out of a spinning aircraft, I wouls estimate close
to a 100% better chance of survival if you have a chute on. I sure would
hate to be the person who was able to get out of the so called "impossible
aircraft to get out of" only to find they didn't have a chute on.

Wear a chute, what can it hurt?


And have quick release pins on the doors with the handles -inside-

  #24  
Old March 23rd 07, 05:14 AM posted to rec.aviation.aerobatics,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Dudley Henriques[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,546
Default Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

Our procedure was to yank the QR pins and turn the handle;
Champion may well have improved the quick release doors by now. Its been
a long time ago for me in the Citabria :-)
I would suggest a good look through the POH and a brief from the
airplane operator for the current scoop on this.
DH


john hawkins wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...

Cox wrote:
If you do manage to get out of a spinning aircraft, I wouls estimate
close to a 100% better chance of survival if you have a chute on. I sure
would hate to be the person who was able to get out of the so called
"impossible aircraft to get out of" only to find they didn't have a
chute on.

Wear a chute, what can it hurt?

Adam

Adam Cope
www.dcaerobatics.com
703-623-9445


I totally agree with this. The " you'll never get out of this airplane
because of the door" routine is something I've heard repeated many times
through my career teaching aerobatics. My standard answer and "lecture" on
this issue is as follows;
For spins, even if the regulations don't call for chutes, I always
recommend wearing them. I always had chutes available for whatever
aircraft we were using for spin training.
A lot has been written and said about the difficulties involved in getting
out of Aerobats, Citabrias, and Decathlons.
There is no doubt that especially with a structural failure, exiting one
of these aircraft could be iffy. That's why any good instructor not only
supplies chutes for spin training, but as well performs a complete egress
brief specific to aircraft type to the point where once the bail out call
has been made, each occupant knows what the exit procedure will be. This
is especially critical in tandem aircraft.
I should mention that even with the most complete egress briefing, there
is STILL an element of doubt that a successful exit from these airplanes
can be executed in the time available under extreme g in a post structural
failure.
The factors involving a successful bail out are so diverse that there are
just no guarantees.
In the Pitts S2 for example, if the upper wing fails, the flying wires
will most likely remain attached and the upper wing will beat the
occupants to death before a bail out can be achieved.
All this being considered, the use of chutes is not only recommended, but
in my opinion a necessary part of every non- standard flight whether it be
aerobatics or spin training.
The bottom line is that wearing a chute gives you a fighting chance for
survival. Not wearing a chute gives you no chance at all.
Its a smart pilot who takes advantage of all available options!
Dudley Henriques


Dudley,
Could you give some specifics about exiting a citabria?
I used to do aerobatics in one and always wore a chute. I never suspected
that I would have trouble exiting if I pulled the door hinge pins, I thought
the door would vanish and leave me a big hole to climb out.
The only serious instructor I had was in a Stearman and he never discussed
exiting in case of trouble.
Obviously I was completely ignorant. Better to learn late than never.




  #25  
Old March 23rd 07, 04:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.aerobatics,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
C J Campbell[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 799
Default Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

On 2007-02-28 19:41:14 -0800, john smith said:

In article . net,
"Todd W. Deckard" wrote:

Why would you say this? The door would be fairly easy to open in a spin.
In a high speed loss of control it might be very difficult to overcome
aerodynamic resistance but it is possible to open a forward hinged door
and force it open enough to squeeze out at even 100kts in straight flight.
With a modern canopy you stand a chance of a survivable deployment at
even a few hundred feet.


I wouldn't be too positive about those statements.
I have over 300 freefalls and 25 hours of acro in a Citabria.
The Citabria only has one door... on the right side. In a right spin,
the rate of descent is still going to be about 800 fpm with an indicated
airspeed of 45-50 mph. That's quite and airload on the inside turn side
of the airframe. Add to that centrifugal forces and getting through the
doorway after jettisoning the door will be a challenging proposition.
You have two sets of seatbelts to release, a headset to remove and a
body with a parachute attached to fit through the doorway. When you exit
you will be on the inside side of the airplane, which you have to clear
before you pull the D-ring.
Tic-toc, the clock is winding down as fast as the altimeter.
I have knowledge of only one acro pilot who successfully exited a
Decathlon.


There was a guy down in Borrego Springs who managed to bail out when
his Citabria would not recover. Checking the wreckage later he found
the seatbelt from the rear seat had wrapped itself around the stick.

He could have sworn he had secured that thing.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

  #26  
Old March 23rd 07, 04:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.aerobatics,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
karl gruber[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 396
Default Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

I have an acquaintance that kicked his way out the windshield of a Citabria,
after the wings folded up against the fuselage.

Karl
"Curator" N185KG


"john hawkins" wrote in message
et...

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...


Cox wrote:
If you do manage to get out of a spinning aircraft, I wouls estimate
close to a 100% better chance of survival if you have a chute on. I
sure would hate to be the person who was able to get out of the so
called "impossible aircraft to get out of" only to find they didn't
have a chute on.

Wear a chute, what can it hurt?

Adam

Adam Cope
www.dcaerobatics.com
703-623-9445



I totally agree with this. The " you'll never get out of this airplane
because of the door" routine is something I've heard repeated many times
through my career teaching aerobatics. My standard answer and "lecture"
on this issue is as follows;
For spins, even if the regulations don't call for chutes, I always
recommend wearing them. I always had chutes available for whatever
aircraft we were using for spin training.
A lot has been written and said about the difficulties involved in
getting out of Aerobats, Citabrias, and Decathlons.
There is no doubt that especially with a structural failure, exiting one
of these aircraft could be iffy. That's why any good instructor not only
supplies chutes for spin training, but as well performs a complete egress
brief specific to aircraft type to the point where once the bail out call
has been made, each occupant knows what the exit procedure will be. This
is especially critical in tandem aircraft.
I should mention that even with the most complete egress briefing, there
is STILL an element of doubt that a successful exit from these airplanes
can be executed in the time available under extreme g in a post
structural failure.
The factors involving a successful bail out are so diverse that there are
just no guarantees.
In the Pitts S2 for example, if the upper wing fails, the flying wires
will most likely remain attached and the upper wing will beat the
occupants to death before a bail out can be achieved.
All this being considered, the use of chutes is not only recommended, but
in my opinion a necessary part of every non- standard flight whether it
be aerobatics or spin training.
The bottom line is that wearing a chute gives you a fighting chance for
survival. Not wearing a chute gives you no chance at all.
Its a smart pilot who takes advantage of all available options!
Dudley Henriques


Dudley,
Could you give some specifics about exiting a citabria?
I used to do aerobatics in one and always wore a chute. I never suspected
that I would have trouble exiting if I pulled the door hinge pins, I
thought the door would vanish and leave me a big hole to climb out.
The only serious instructor I had was in a Stearman and he never discussed
exiting in case of trouble.
Obviously I was completely ignorant. Better to learn late than never.







  #27  
Old March 24th 07, 03:42 AM posted to rec.aviation.aerobatics,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
C J Campbell[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 799
Default Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

On 2007-03-23 08:33:20 -0700, "karl gruber" said:

I have an acquaintance that kicked his way out the windshield of a Citabria,
after the wings folded up against the fuselage.

Karl
"Curator" N185KG


Amazing what you can do with the proper motivation.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

  #28  
Old March 24th 07, 06:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.aerobatics,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Roger[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 677
Default Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 19:42:32 -0700, C J Campbell
wrote:

On 2007-03-23 08:33:20 -0700, "karl gruber" said:

I have an acquaintance that kicked his way out the windshield of a Citabria,
after the wings folded up against the fuselage.

Karl
"Curator" N185KG


Amazing what you can do with the proper motivation.


With some forms of motivation being far more effective than others.
Strange the thoughts you can have.

The last conscious thoughts I had as I watched the top of the SUV
disappear out of sight above the top of windsheild in the Trans Am
were, "Boy, I'll bet this is gonna hurt". (this was happening at 50
MPH Plus). Then I was thinking, I can't see a thing with all this dust
from the air bags, followed by "I think I'm spinning through two solid
lanes full of traffic. Maybe it's better I can't see out".
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
  #29  
Old March 26th 07, 07:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.aerobatics,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
pittss1c
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 30
Default Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2007-03-23 08:33:20 -0700, "karl gruber"
said:

I have an acquaintance that kicked his way out the windshield of a
Citabria,
after the wings folded up against the fuselage.

Karl
"Curator" N185KG


Amazing what you can do with the proper motivation.


I think the important statistic would be to look at the fatal accidents
where the pilot was wearing a parachute, and see how many are unstrapped
and trying to get out when they hit the ground.
In the searches I have done, I don't remember ever seeing this (although
I was focusing on Pitts accidents.


Mike
  #30  
Old March 27th 07, 02:52 AM posted to rec.aviation.aerobatics,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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Posts: 790
Default Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

"pittss1c" wrote in message
...
C J Campbell wrote:
On 2007-03-23 08:33:20 -0700, "karl gruber"

...
Amazing what you can do with the proper motivation.


I think the important statistic would be to look at the fatal accidents
where the pilot was wearing a parachute, and see how many are unstrapped
and trying to get out when they hit the ground.
In the searches I have done, I don't remember ever seeing this (although I
was focusing on Pitts accidents.


Mike


I didn't find any of those.

And, I was wrong. It _is_ possible to get out of a Cessna 150/172 - even a
Piper PA-28 without a quick release door. (see below)

Notes - most accidents involving Cessna's and parachutes are from jump
operations - you end up plowing though a lot of reports where the word
"parachute" appears but has nothing to do with the cause / outcome.

I ran into several fatal accidents where the occupants of Citabria's were
not wearing 'chutes while doing aerobatics.

Several fatal accidents with and without parachutes happened from aerobatics
at low altitudes.

Some where the occupants got out but not in time - there was no indicaton if
they took too long to start to get out or had too much trouble getting out
(These were Pitts in spins iirc) . In one, the student made it out, but the
instructor was still belted in (Citabria)

Then there was the guy who bailed out of a 150 when he ran out of gas on
final...

Excerpts from accident reports:

Cessna 172: "The pilot, Hodelin F. Rene, stated he arrived at Flowers Air
Charter, on December 3, 1994, at about 1000, and was introduced to his
passenger by Mr. Flowers. Miss Pascale stated she wanted to take several
pictures of a couple of houses in the Cutler Ridge area, and drew a circle
around the area on an aeronautical chart. He went to Terminal One, taxied
his airplane to Flowers Air Charter, and did a preflight inspection. The
passenger did her own preflight inspection, and asked several questions
about the operations of the right passenger door. They departed Opa Locka
Airport and flew to the area previously marked on the map. He leveled off at
5,000 feet agl, slowed the airplane to 70 mph, and asked her where she
wanted to go. She stated she would look outside to make sure. A short time
later, she stated she was going to take off the headset and move the seat
back so she could get a good shot. He then heard what sounded like a yell,
felt wind and noise simultaneously in the cabin area. He looked towards the
sound, she was already partly out of the airplane, and when their eyes met,
she jumped out. "I was in total amazement, shock and just froze for a
moment, not knowing what to do. I could not believe what had happened. After
about ten seconds, I called ATC and requested a descent as I struggled to
close the door." He then informed ATC that he would like to declare an
emergency, that his passenger had jumped out of the airplane."

PIPER PA-28-180: "THE PILOT HAD TRANSMITTED A DISTRESS CALL THAT THE
AIRPLANE WAS HAVING FUEL PRESSURE PROBLEMS. THE AIRPLANE WAS SQUAWKING
TRANSPONDER CODE 7700. IT THEN DISAPPEARED FROM RADAR. THE PILOT HAD EARLIER
LEFT A MESSAGE TO HIS WIFE ON A TELEPHONE ANSWERING MACHINE THAT 'I DON'T
WANT TO LIVE ANY MORE...' GROUND WITNESSES OBSERVED A MAN PARACHUTE FROM AN
AIRPLANE IN THE AREA AT THE TIME OF THE ACCIDENT. THE PILOT'S BODY WAS FOUND
ON DECEMBER 21, 1994.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of
this accident as follows:

THE PILOT'S INTENTIONAL DECISION TO ABANDON THE AIRPLANE AND ALLOW IT TO FLY
UNATTENDED."

Cessna 150E: "THE PILOT WAS COMPLETING A CROSS-COUNTRY TRIP WHEN HE LOST
ENGINE POWER ON FINAL APPROACH. ACCORDING TO THE FAA, HE TURNED THE AIRPLANE
AWAY FROM THE AIRPORT AND PARACHUTED FROM THE AIRCRAFT AT 'APPROXIMATELY 560
FEET AGL. THE PARACHUTE OPENED JUST PRIOR TO GROUND CONTACT, AND THE
AIRPLANE CRASHED IN THE BACKYARD OF A RESIDENCE.' THE PILOT STATED TO THE
FAA THAT HE THOUGHT HE HAD RUN OUT OF FUEL. THE FAA ALSO FOUND THAT, 'THE
AIRPLANE HAD RECEIVED DAMAGE TO ITS WINGS WHILE TAXIING ONE DAY PRIOR TO THE
ACCIDENT.' THE PILOT 'HAD APPARENTLY CONDUCTED HIS OWN REPAIRS TO THE RIGHT
WING' THAT WAS DAMAGED.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of
this accident as follows:

AN INFLIGHT COLLISION WITH TERRAIN DURING AN UNCONTROLLED DESCENT AFTER THE
PILOT PARACHUTED FROM THE AIRPLANE. CONTRIBUTING TO THE ACCIDENT WERE FUEL
EXHAUSTION AND THE PILOT'S DISREGARD FOR EMERGENCY PROCEDURES. "

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.


 




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