C-130 on Navy Carrier

(JJ) wrote in news:4210d9d9.122177140
@news2.flex.com:

Okay, here's another one:

Big cargo plane comes in for approach, the back door opens up, an
arresting hook comes out. It is attached to a LAPES sled/pallet.
The hook grabs an arresting cable, the release force threshold is
reached. the cargo is pulled from the aircraft cargo bay and onto the
deck.

The arresting cable system slows down the load and keeps it from going
too far.

The success rate of manned jets catching arresting cables is far from
100%, and you are expecting, nay requiring, a 100% rate for an
uncontrolled unaerodynamic lump deposited on the flight deck at @ 130
knots. Bold dream, my friend.

Watch this video, all the way through becasue it isn't all LAPES, and
tell us once more how practical this is.

BTW, how old are you? I used to dream up stuff like this when I was in my
teens.

Dave in San Diego

(JJ) wrote in news:4210d9d9.122177140
@news2.flex.com:

Okay, here's another one:

Big cargo plane comes in for approach, the back door opens up, an
arresting hook comes out. It is attached to a LAPES sled/pallet.
The hook grabs an arresting cable, the release force threshold is
reached. the cargo is pulled from the aircraft cargo bay and onto the
deck.

The arresting cable system slows down the load and keeps it from going
too far.

The success rate of manned jets catching arresting cables is far from
100%, and you are expecting, nay requiring, a 100% rate for an
uncontrolled unaerodynamic lump deposited on the flight deck at @ 130
knots. Bold dream, my friend.

Watch this video, all the way through becasue it isn't all LAPES, and
tell us once more how practical this is.

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photoga...s/airdrops.wmv

BTW, how old are you? I used to dream up stuff like this when I was in my
teens.

Dave in San Diego

Dave in San Diego wrote:

(JJ) wrote in
Big cargo plane comes in for approach, the back door opens up, an
arresting hook comes out. It is attached to a LAPES sled/pallet.
The hook grabs an arresting cable, the release force threshold is
reached. the cargo is pulled from the aircraft cargo bay and onto the
deck.
The arresting cable system slows down the load and keeps it from going
too far.

The success rate of manned jets catching arresting cables is far from
100%, and you are expecting, nay requiring, a 100% rate for an
uncontrolled unaerodynamic lump deposited on the flight deck at @ 130
knots. Bold dream, my friend.

Hunh? If the hook misses the arresting cables, the cargo plane keeps
going and comes back for another approach just like the regular
carrier jets. The cargo module doesn't leave the plane unless hook
catches a cable.

Watch this video, all the way through becasue it isn't all LAPES, and
tell us once more how practical this is.

I don't see any arresting cables or smooth steel decks in your
otherwise amusing video. I thank you for that.

Um Dave, while I did touch upon parachutes earlier in this thread, I
don't use them in this sub-thread. My mention of LAPES sled/pallet
refers only to the structure that the cargo is secured to and in turn
is secured to the aircraft load bay. That part has already been
invented and should be reused with some modifications.

BTW, how old are you? I used to dream up stuff like this when I was in my
teens.
Dave in San Diego

Well I am old enough to know that engineering evolution can go from
what seems to be a pretty zany brainstorm type idea to an effective
operational system.

Jay

I got it how about a normally arrested landing... only the cargo is
attached to the hook. The 130 bolters the cargo stays on deck. Boy talk
about a POWER DUMP.
KenG

JJ wrote:
William Hughes wrote:


What would happen if the C130 just flew in low to the deck and the
cargo was ejected out the back? Could most airdropped stuff take a 10
foot freefall? How about 20 feet? How about the carrier deck?
Probably no dents right? I can imagine it "depends" on what is being
delivered.

I don't think it's been tried on a carrier, but the system you describe exists.
It's called the Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System (LAPES).
Problem is, it isn't accurate enough for a carrier. One or two hundred feet short or long, or a
few degrees off-axis on land is no big deal, but on a carrier it's the
difference between a successful delivery and a massive hole in the transom, a
bunch of wrecked deckload aircraft, or a lost cargo.


Wouldn't the flight deck be cleared of aircraft? The 1960s picture
shows a cleared deck on Forrestal. How fast does the cargo slow down
from the parachutes that pull it from the plane? What if a special
surface was put on the bottom of the delivery containers to help it
slow down quicker? Imagine big keds sneaker soles? :-)


It's be easier to just rig the cargo for airdrop and splashdown, then retrieve it with the carrier's helos.
This, of course, limits the cargo to the lifting capacity of the helo, which
invalidates the entire reason for using a C-130 in the first place. Might as
well just stick to the COD.


Well wasn't the main reason for trying out the C130 more because of
range limitations not payload? Also, if the C130 payload is not a
couple of very large items too heavy for a helo but instead many
smaller items that could be recovered in multiple helo lifts?

Jay

Yes..go he http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question...ry/q0097.shtml





On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 15:47:49 -0800, "W. D. Allen Sr."
wrote:

Does anyone know anything about the C-130 that made arrested landings and
launches from a Navy aircraft carrier back in the 1960s?

WDA

end

Lots of info on this event has been posted here, but it leaves me with a
smaal problem. I've gotten it into my head to build scale models of every
type of post WWII plane that flew of the decks of US carriers, and now it
turns out even the Herc qualifies for that. Can anyone help me with
information about the squadron markings on this particular aircraft? The
links in the various posts show pictures, but they're not very revealing
in this respect.

Thanks for any help

Rob

Rob van Riel wrote in
news
Lots of info on this event has been posted here, but it leaves me with a
smaal problem. I've gotten it into my head to build scale models of every
type of post WWII plane that flew of the decks of US carriers, and now it
turns out even the Herc qualifies for that. Can anyone help me with
information about the squadron markings on this particular aircraft? The
links in the various posts show pictures, but they're not very revealing
in this respect.

Thanks for any help

Rob


Make sure include the U-2 in that list..

In message , Rob van Riel
writes
Lots of info on this event has been posted here, but it leaves me with a
smaal problem. I've gotten it into my head to build scale models of every
type of post WWII plane that flew of the decks of US carriers, and now it
turns out even the Herc qualifies for that. Can anyone help me with
information about the squadron markings on this particular aircraft? The
links in the various posts show pictures, but they're not very revealing
in this respect.

Thanks for any help

Rob

Everything? Including FAA, Aéronavale, Koninklijke Marine, RAN, etc.?
Sounds like quite a list if that's the case!
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

Just a few minor corrections
Both pilots, Flatley and Stoval got DFCs for this program.

The C-130 was the largest and heaviest airplane to be "publically"
landed on a carrier. The Navy didn't go public with everything it did.

The program was to counter USAF and Whiz Kid complaints that a nuclear
carrier could not be resupplied by air if necessary. This program
proved they could be and if you check history you'll find all carriers
henceforth were nuclear powered. Kennedy and America were the final
oil burners desired by both the USAF and Macnammara's whiz kids because
of cost.

The C-2a while not as large became the carrier's supply airplane.

The short landing roll was due to close coordination between the LSO
and Stoval who operated the throttles. At the LSO's signal "cut" all
props went into reverse pitch while the Herc was still in the air.
Flatley steered and locked the Hytrol brakes.The landing was not a
gentle USAF type.

The C-1A referred to had a max range of about 800 miles, not 300. It
was payload limited. The C-2A could carry two J-79 engines which was
it's design spec. Max range about 1000 miles.

The primary purpose of this effort was to prove the Navy could do what
the USAF and Macnammaras educated idiots (IMHO) said could not be done.
The fact that there were few pilots with Flatley and Stovals expertise
around was lost on the doubters and the Nuclear carrier became the Navy
Standard.They deserved more than a DFC, INMHO, but they did the Navy
proud that day.

PS, I know Macnammara is misspelled but I really don't care.


Lorence wrote:
On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 15:47:49 -0800, "W. D. Allen Sr."
wrote:

Does anyone know anything about the C-130 that made arrested
landings and
launches from a Navy aircraft carrier back in the 1960s?


Taken from http://www.cgaux.com/C-130carrierlanding.htm
__________________________________________________ ____________

Not only was it possible, it was done in moderately rough seas 500
miles out in the North Atlantic off the coast of Boston. In so doing,
the airplane became the largest and heaviest aircraft to ever land on
an aircraft carrier, a record that stands to this day.

When Lt. James H. Flatley III was told about his new assignment, he
thought somebody was pulling his leg. "Operate a C-130 off an
aircraft
carrier? Somebody's got to be kidding," he said. But they weren't
kidding. In fact, the Chief of Naval Operations himself had ordered a
feasibility study on operating the big propjet aboard the
Norfolk-based U.S.S. Forrestal (CVA-59). The Navy was trying to find
out whether they could use the Hercules as a "Super COD" - a "Carrier
Onboard Delivery" aircraft. The airplane then used for such tasks was
the Grumman C-1 Trader, a twin piston-engine bird with a limited
payload capacity and 300-mile range. If an aircraft carrier is
operating in mid-ocean, it has no "onboard delivery" system to fall
back on and must come nearer land before taking aboard even urgently
needed items. The Hercules was stable and reliable, with a long
cruising range and capable of carrying large payloads.


C-130 Hercules

The aircraft, a KC-130F refueler transport (BuNo 149798), on loan
from
the U.S. Marines, was delivered on 8 October. Lockheed's only
modifications to the original plane included installing a smaller
nose-landing gear orifice, an improved anti-skid braking system, and
removal of the underwing refueling pods. "The big worry was whether
we
could meet the maximum sink rate of nine feet per second," Flatley
said. As it turned out, the Navy was amazed to find they were able to
better this mark by a substantial margin.

In addition to Flatley, the crew consisted of Lt.Cmdr. W.W. Stovall,
copilot; ADR-1 E.F. Brennan, flight engineer; and Lockheed
engineering
flight test pilot Ted H. Limmer, Jr. The initial sea-born landings on
30 October 1963 were made into a 40-knot wind. Altogether, the crew
successfully negotiated 29 touch-and-go landings, 21 unarrested
full-stop landings, and 21 unassisted takeoffs at gross weights of
85,000 pounds up to 121,000 pounds. At 85,000 pounds, the KC-130F
came
to a complete stop within 267 feet, about twice the aircraft's wing
span! The Navy was delighted to discover that even with a maximum
payload, the plane used only 745 feet for takeoff and 460 feet for
landing roll. The short landing roll resulted from close coordination
between Flatley and Jerry Daugherty, the carrier's landing signal
officer. Daugherty, later to become a captain and assigned to the
Naval Air Systems Command, gave Flatley an engine "chop" while still
three or four feet off the deck.

C-130 Hercules

Lockheed's Ted Limmer, who checked out fighter pilot Flatley in the
C-130, stayed on for some of the initial touch-and-go and full-stop
landings. "The last landing I participated in, we touched down about
150 feet from the end, stopped in 270 feet more and launched from
that
position, using what was left of the deck. We still had a couple
hundred feet left when we lifted off. Admiral Brown was
flabbergasted."

The plane's wingspan cleared the Forrestal's flight deck "island"
control tower by just under 15 feet as the plane roared down the deck
on a specially painted line. Lockheed's chief engineer, Art E. Flock
was aboard to observe the testing. "The sea was pretty big that day.
I
was up on the captain's bridge. I watched a man on the ship's bow as
that bow must have gone up and down 30 feet." The speed of the shop
was increased 10 knots to reduce yaw motion and to reduce wind
direction. Thus, when the plane landed, it had a 40 to 50 knot wind
on
the nose. "That airplane stopped right opposite the captain's
bridge,"
recalled Flock. "There was cheering and laughing. There on the side
of
the fuselage, a big sign had been painted on that said, "LOOK MA, NO
HOOK."

From the accumulated test data, the Navy concluded that with the
C-130
Hercules, it would be possible to lift 25,000 pounds of cargo 2,500
miles and land it on a carrier. Even so, the idea was considered a
bit
too risky for the C-130 and the Navy elected to use a smaller COD
aircraft. For his effort, the Navy awarded Flatley the Distinguished
Flying Cross.


Lorence

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:38:38 +0000, Peter Twydell wrote:

In message , Rob van Riel
writes
smaal problem. I've gotten it into my head to build scale models of every
type of post WWII plane that flew of the decks of US carriers, and now it

Everything? Including FAA, Aéronavale, Koninklijke Marine, RAN, etc.?
Sounds like quite a list if that's the case!

Basically, just US Navy/Marines, but if there was an interesting enough
guest appearance on one of the US carriers, I'll consider it qualified.
And yes, you're right, even that is quite a list, but it's still a lot
less than it would be if I declared a modelling free for all. Many
modellers have hundreds, if not thousands of unbuilt kits in the attic, so
limited myself to this and a few other subjects. It may not sound like
such a great limitation, but it sure beats "anything that ever flew or is
otherwise interesting".

Rob