What would you buy with a 50k budget?

On Sun, 18 May 2008 15:34:28 -0700, Bob Fry
wrote:

The vast majority of people
do not want advice even when they ask for it. They want to be
affirmed with a decision already made. You've decided to quit. But
you don't want the burden of that decision so you're placing it on
this ng, on price, cost, your wife, your boat, whatever.

Hmmmm.....without my wife I would not be in a position to even
entertain the thought of owning an airplane. Even the idea of
searching online to gain insight into the financial feasibility of
such an endeavor would have been ludicrous. But the information I've
gleamed recently has shown what options are available and what path to
take. For now, she comes first because it's all about compromise.
Thanks for your wisdom and for the advice, opinions and the sharing of
experience by all of those who have posted in response to my question.

Newps wrote:

Right, I wouldn't touch an A model(1949) with a 10 foot pole. Stick to
the late 50's or newer like I said and you get at least an IO-470 and no
prop issues. Same basic engine and prop that's in a 182.

Just to add a few more tedious details...

The H model came out in '57 with an odd O-470-G (I'm not sure its used in
airframe) that was carbed. The J model came out in '58 with a more common
injected IO-470-C.

So how much can you spend on a J model Bonanza? I dunno for sure, as I
don't pay too much attention generally. However, I did a 2 minute glance
around the 'net and the cheapest asking price I could find was $55,000.
Given the current market, one could probably could find something cheaper,
but somehow I don't think it would be a lot cheaper.

Besides the very early models (35,A35,B35) are the best flying Bonanzas.
I know because Old Bob told me so ;-) (its an inside joke).

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Boise, ID

Sorry post posting proof-reading:

Frank Stutzman wrote:

The H model came out in '57 with an odd O-470-G (I'm not sure its used in
airframe) that was carbed. The J model came out in '58 with a more common
injected IO-470-C.

Should read:

The H model came out in '57 with an odd O-470-G (I'm not sure its used in
ANOTHER airframe) that was carbed. The J model came out in '58 with a
more common injected IO-470-C.

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Boise, ID

RST Engineering wrote:
This is a good time to buy, the airplane market being somewhat depressed.
Whatever you buy, you need to be sure that it is either STCd or can be STCd
for autogas. Believe what you will, the world has exactly ONE supplier for
a critical component of 100/100LL. The ethanol thing will shake itself out
as the world braces for a sharp increase in the price of dinogas. There
will be a solution. THere always has been. Necessity, as somebody noted,
is a mother.

Skyhawk or Cherokee, whichever suits your fancy. Parts are a little easier
to get for the 172; the PA28 is a little roomier. Buy the airplane in the
WINTER. Summer prices are 10-20% higher.

You need two critical things right off the crack of the bat. One is an
A&P-IA that is a mean son of a bitch but will work with you to let you do
95% of the work on the airplane. Ply him or her with beer, (wo)men,
whatever to keep him or her around. The second is a set-aside of the
purchase money for a COMPLETE set of tools that is dedicated to the airplane
and not trucked to and from the airport from home.

Have your IA go over your intended with a fine tooth comb looking for
"stuff" that will have to be done to keep the bird birdworthy. There will
always be something ... tires, a cracked flap panel, burned out landing
light, all that stuff. Set your bidding price accordingly. If it means an
airline ticket for your IA and a day's wages to send him/her to the
airplane, cheap price to pay for finding a crack in the spar that will cost
thousands to replace.

Having said that, and being partial to Cessna for several reasons, I'd find
an ancient 172 with a mid time engine and crappy paint, lousy interior, and
terrible radios. Spend half your nut on the airframe itself and put the
other half in the bank. Fly the sucker for a hundred hours or so with rips
in the seats, crackly radios, and the "laughing stock" of the airport bums
for looks. To hell with them.

If your budget can afford it, a hangar is one of the best investments you
can make. It will pay for itself in allowing you to do 95% of the work on
the airplane in a semblance of comfort.

Do the radios/instruments first. You will have your filthy shoes on the
carpet and seats while you struggle with that one last nut on the tray on
the top of the stack and if you've done the interior first, you will kick
yourself silly for tracking crap all over your fine looking upholstery job.
I'm partial to used radios for a couple of reasons, not the least of which
you will spend half or less on a used radio than a new one. Don't fall for
the "yellow tag" trap. All that stupid yellow tag tells you is that some
radio shop puke ran it through its paces on the bench and it met certain
minimum standards. Will it crap out when the engine shakes the airplane?
Who knows. And don't fall for the "working when removed" line either. No
matter who you buy it from or where it came from, buy it with an ironclad
ten day or two week no questions asked money back (except for shipping)
return guarantee. As with your IA, make friends with your radio shop. TELL
them that you are doing your own work, but are more than willing to pay shop
labor to shake, rattle, and roll your prospective radio and find out if
there is anything that isn't up to snuff and back up their labor rate with
some sort of guarantee. The BEST guarantee, if you can find a radio shop
willing to do it, is a six month guarantee that if it breaks you will pay
actual parts cost and HALF the normal labor rate for repair during the
guarantee period.

Personally? I've got a pair of KX-170Bs with the associated nav heads. Old
radios? Sure, but there is a guy in Trade-A-Plane that specializes in this
particular model. They've never crapped out, but if they do, I know where
to get them fixed.

One last word on radios...make absolutely sure that ALL the connectors come
with the radios. If the connectors come with wires cut about six to twelve
inches from the connector, you may just wish to check out the various "hot
radio" lists to make sure yours wasn't "inadvertently removed" at midnight
somewhere.

Oh, notice all that yellowed cotton fabric insulation on the wiring that is
cracking? Hmmm...surplus stores nationwide have brand new mil-spec aviation
wire for pennies on the dollar. Might just as well do the wiring while you
are doing the radios. Hint ... use some sort of clear shrink sleeving and
color code the end of each wire as you replace it. Makes troubleshooting a
whole bunch easier. Hint #2. Download an old copy of Circuitmaker and
Traxmaker and become familiar with making your own schematic diagrams.
Again, makes troubleshooting a lot easier. Hint #3. Barrier strips and
crimp terminals are your friends. Again, again, makes troubleshooting...

At the same time you are doing your radios, pull all the instruments and
send them out for overhaul. (Nobody said this was going to be cheap.) I
personally prefer the Gyro House down in Auburn CA, but then again, I have
worked with them for thirty years or so. Get advice in this ng as to folks
who have had good results from the various overhaul shops around the
country.

Now your radio stack, wiring, and instruments are top notch. Give yourself
a year's flying with them. Enjoy.

Now do the upholstery. Tear the old stuff off right down to bare metal.
Prime the bare metal. Paint it with the best rattlecan paint you can find.
Go to Airtex and look at their catalog. They make, in my opinion, some of
the best upholstery stuff in the world. Or, you can do what Jay Honeck did
and find a local upholsterer that is doing a BIG leather job and have him do
your seats from the leather scraps from his big job. You will still need
carpet, side panels, and headliner from Airtex to match your seat color(s).

Fly the airplane for a year. Enjoy.

If you need any of the glass replaced, now is the time to do it. If you
don't, drilling rivets out of a new paint job will make you cry. Don't do
the windshield yourself. It is a lousy, dirty, messy job. Have somebody
else crack the new windshield and have to replace it out of their pocket.

Want a personal N-Number? Now is the time to do it. My airplane was
factory-christened N 5151 D. In '90 it became (ham radio operators note) N
73 CQ.

Now find a good paint shop and have them do the painting including the new
N-number.

Oh, did you keep a logbook of all this stuff? I don't mean the airplane
logs. I mean your personal logs. Any time you spend on the airplane
(including research and drawing schematics on the computer) is loggable
towards your A&P. YOu need 30 months of experience (35 hour weeks, as I
recall) just to sit for the exam, and after that (except for annuals) you
can sign your own work off. What's that? 5000 hours or so? Hell, you'll
have that halfway through the upholstery. Your IA can sign off verifying
your time. This is not an absolute requirement, but the local FSDO isn't
going to run you through the crap mill if you get the signature.

And what has all this bought you? Not only pilot time, but knowing the
airplane inside out. Knowing FOR SURE that when you flip the switch, the
lights will come on. And you can't buy that experience for love nor money.

Jim

(Oh, one last thing. You DID start your engine fund when you bought the
airplane, yes? By now it is probably a couple of hundred hours past TBO and
you might want to start looking at engine parts. You DO want to do the
engine yourself, don't you? {;-)

Jim,

As much as your an arrogant SOB at times you do make sense quite often.
I got my ap/ia in much the same way as you described.

It mostly started with my first airplane a PA22-150 and worked into a
Bonanza.

Airplane ownership is more than just flying an aircraft for less than
renting. Its making what you have better than the original and doing it
because you want to make it better and because you understand why it works.
Airplanes are not rocket science, that's why they are so reliable.
And an annual doesn't need to be as expensive as most IA's make it to be.
You fly because you love it, and you work on your own aircraft for the
same reason.

It's more than just dollars and cents, its a passion.

Dave

Kirk Ellis wrote ...
Hmmmm.....without my wife I would not be in a position to
even entertain the thought of owning an airplane. Even the
idea of searching online to gain insight into the financial
feasibility of such an endeavor would have been ludicrous.
But the information I've gleamed recently has shown what
options are available and what path to take. For now, she
comes first because it's all about compromise. Thanks for
your wisdom and for the advice, opinions and the sharing of
experience by all of those who have posted in response to
my question.

OK Kirk, reality check time: The owner of Pilots Haven (Academy of Aviation
dot com) KFRG recently told me that not a single "middle class person" who
was a recreational pilot or pilot wannabe has walked thru his doors in the
last eight months. Yet he's busier than ever renting G1000 Skyhawks to upper
crusties and major airline pilot wannabes working thru to the comm ticket in
TAAs. No matter how much people rationalize that "in real dollars against
inflation it's no more expensive to fly blah blah blah", the truth is it has
gotten pretty tough for Joe Average!

So what'dya wanna do, take a timeout or fly?

If you have 150hr in 10 years, and you probably spent half that in the first
two years getting your ticket, you spend less than 10 hours a year flying.
If most of that was $100 burger flights, you are probably so out of practice
on the basics that it scares you to think "what if?". So here you are.

Now here forward are the options:
1. Run
2. Rent
3. Buy needs (as in meets), not want.

If you Run you'll never return, that's just the stats.
If you Rent you'll continue on the 10hr/yr road which leads to Run.
If you decide you're not a commie pinko thru the fence looking wannabe; then
here's your road to happy financially manageable ownership:
a. Get together with your partner (wife, not flying partner) and tell her
you really really really need to do this. If you can't get at least a
reluctant buyin, go back to option #1. If you get the green light, from that
moment on NEVER NEVER NEVER mention aviation costs in her presence again
EVER!
b. Now go have a beer with your real partner (flying partner) and agree that
a simple 2 seater like a Tomahawk or C150/2 would probably meet 90% of your
NEEDS, and a Cherokee 140 would be the limit (you can always rent if you
need more). If after 20 minutes the discussion has moved on to Bonanzas or
Mooneys, go back to option #1.
c. You've now reached a magic moment, here's where you agree with your
partner to visit an accountant to form a Del Corp, establish a Corp checking
acct with $20000 ($10K each), and spend the next 3 months renting a plane to
go kick some airplane tires.
d. You both agressively research everything AOPA has about partnership
agreements, perspective owner info, and the purchasing process on their
website.
e. Then go and ask every airplane owner you meet who his A&P is (write down
the name and number), then visit that guy and tell him you are looking for
an entry level plane for around 20 to 25K (he will add another 10k in his
head, so stay low. No one knows why this happens, but it works the same way
with weddings). Even if the A&P route comes up dry (which it almost never
does), you'll probably use one of these guys for your PreBuy inspection. If
the distance is too far for him, he'll probably know an A&P nearby where you
find your plane.
f. Look in ASO and Controller and Trade-a-Plane and AOPA and the half dozen
other free classified sites on the net.
g. Use the $20K as a starting number, remember that nobody pays ASKING
price, and plan on using a Bank Loan to finance about half the plane. The
bank will tend to slow the process a bit (a day or two), but they are your
friend in this process to make sure you get a clean title. AOPA is kind of a
one stop shop for both insur and loan, and since your numbers are low end
you don't really need to shop around.
h. Any more advice and you'll have to pay me.

Mike Spera's post was a bit pessimistic, but his numbers were dead on for a
single owner 180hp 4-seat plane. Re read my post in this thread that
mentions "ego driven mission creep" and stick with a 2-seater that from
Northern FL will easily make the trip to Key West (with a fuel stop of
course). Then plan on using some of the money I saved you (from the $50K)
and get some hours in the plane, it's back to basics time!!!

Good Luck.

Kirk Ellis wrote:

Are half century old airplanes still viable machines? It sounds scary
buying something that is almost as old as I am.

Mines 55. '53 Pacer that starts getting all new skin this week. Thats
not a pricey as a new engine, but it sure ain't cheap either. New sealed
struts (kills a repetative AD), new windshield, avionics upgrades, also
new wheels, brakes, tires and a paint job when its all done. Then I'll
consider a topend (135hp Lycosaurus)...

My wing internals look brand new, as does the airframe. Geauxing through
the logbooks, lots of stuff (tailwheels, pulleys, cables, wiring,
instruments, never a complete fabric job though) has been replaced
during those 55 years thats kept it in the good shape its still in.
Course its easy to see everything when its naked. Pretty tough to do
with the average spamcan...

The point about the cash is well taken. I may be able to work that
out....of course the "partner" I share the boat with will have
something to say about the equity line of credit.

If I had to rethink it, probably a partnership in a decent retractable
single engined Beech spamcan (just like Newps) or a flying club (ours
had shutdown, had an old Cardinal). I've been in the Lancair's and
flying faster than 240 mph (on 17 gph @ 18k') sure is nice when from
here to there is a far piece (crossing 4 or more states, especially one
like Texas)...

As much as your an arrogant SOB at times

That's "you're"

From your arrogant SOB. Learn English.

Jim

A Cessna 150... There is a very clean and well maintained one on my
field for $17K... (KHYX)
Kepp the remainder of the money for gas, oil, and annuals..

denny

I am with Jim on this.. If there is a will, there is a way... You have
lost your will...

Amen. I am in the process of buying an old Ercoupe in a new flying club
that I'm starting with two other guys. Our entire investment will be
$18,000 -- divided three ways.

I paid $6000 for a motorcycle in 1988. Flying *can* be affordable.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Mon, 19 May 2008 03:15:20 GMT, "Mike Isaksen"
wrote:

.... reality check time: snip the truth is it has
gotten pretty tough for Joe Average!

So what'dya wanna do, take a timeout or fly?

Good Luck.


The attrition rate for recreational pilots will only grow. Wages this
year are falling behind inflation and will continue to do so. For
many, recreational flying is no longer an affordable luxury / hobby
that it was ten years ago. It's becoming a much more elite fraternity.

Being a part of that fraternity would definitely be a great adventure
but the amount of cash required to join that club is problematic for
Joe Average.

It's time for a timeout...for it's quite sobering to see how much cash
is required.

And thanks for your advice. Where do I send the fee?