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Outside reference in IMC



 
 
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  #11  
Old May 20th 08, 09:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Tina
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Posts: 500
Default Outside reference in IMC

Bob, I agree that what you wrote is what is commonly understood, but
in fact the definition of IMC in the US is related to where weather
conditions prohibit VFR flying. You are in fact in IMC if you are just
below (or above) a cloud deck and the visibility is 20 miles or more.
In controlled airspace if visibility is less than 3 miles you're in
IMC even though you are probably flying by outside reference as much
as you are by reference to instruments.














On May 20, 3:43 pm, "Bob F." wrote:
The acronyms speak for themselves:

One refers to rules, the other to conditions:

IMC - Instrument Meteorological Conditions - Condition under which flight
instruments are used to maintain control of an aircraft. How used: "Flight
into IMC". One would not say "an IMC rating". If you can use outside
references to maintain flight you are not in IMC... as in "flying in and out
of IMC".

IFR - Instrument Flight Rules - Refers to rules which you follow when
conducting and instrument flight...IMC or not. How used: "I filed IFR
today". One would not say "I have an IFR certificate" or

Notice IMC and IFR are phrases. Your certificate does not say either of
these. You do not have IFR rating, you have an Instrument rating.

--
Regards, BobF."Paul kgyy" wrote in message

...

On May 20, 11:25 am, wrote:
I fly in the southeastern US, nearly always under IFR, in a complex
sel. In reading other threads it's pretty clear that some others who
post here don't understand what IMC means. I mostly hand fly, and I'm
guessing 30% or more of my IMC flying is using the outside horizon,
with occasional glances at the VOR needle, altimeter, and DG to assure
myself I'm on course and at the correct altitude. Is that what most of
you GA types experience as well?


Well, IMC does refer to , well, IMC, which by definition is restricted
visibility. Sometimes there is a horizon, but a good part of the
time, there isn't. Flying offshore in the summer over the Great
Lakes, even VFR conditions do not always present a useable horizon.
If in doubt, I use the gauges and if it's a long trip and not too
turbulent, I let the autopilot do some of the work while I do the
planning ahead.


  #12  
Old May 20th 08, 09:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Scott Skylane
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Posts: 150
Default Outside reference in IMC

Bob F. wrote:

The acronyms speak for themselves:

One refers to rules, the other to conditions:

IMC - Instrument Meteorological Conditions - Condition under which
flight instruments are used to maintain control of an aircraft. How
used: "Flight into IMC". One would not say "an IMC rating". If you
can use outside references to maintain flight you are not in IMC... as
in "flying in and out of IMC".

/snip/

Bob,
Where did you get that definition? The Pilot Controller Glossary states:

"Instrument Meteorological Conditions - Meteorological conditions
expressed in terms of visibility, distance from cloud,and ceiling less
than the minima specified for visual meteorological conditions."

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane
  #13  
Old May 20th 08, 09:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Gig 601Xl Builder
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Posts: 683
Default Instrument nomenclature Outside reference in IMC

Bob F. wrote:

For example: It's an attitude indicator, not and artificial horizon.
It's a heading indicator, not a directional gyro.


When and why did the nomenclature on those get changed. I learned to fly
in the late 70's and flew during the early 80's a bunch then laid off
for quite a while and got my helo rating in the mid 90's.

It seemed to have happened sometime before '95 but the helo instructor I
had didn't seem to mind when I called the heading indicator a
directional gyro and there wasn't an attitude indicator in the R22 so it
never came up.

I'll be honest it wasn't until I started building in 2002 that I
realized that everyone was calling them the new names and decided that I
would too.
  #14  
Old May 20th 08, 10:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
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Posts: 838
Default Outside reference in IMC

On May 20, 3:44*pm, Scott Skylane wrote:

IMC - Instrument Meteorological Conditions - Condition under which
flight instruments are used to maintain control of an aircraft. *How
used: *"Flight into IMC". *One would not say "an IMC rating". *If you
can use outside references to maintain flight you are not in IMC... as
in "flying in and out of IMC".


/snip/

Bob,
Where did you get that definition? *The Pilot Controller Glossary states:

"Instrument Meteorological Conditions - Meteorological conditions
expressed in terms of visibility, distance from cloud,and ceiling less
than the minima specified for visual meteorological conditions."


Scott,

You are correct THE WAY I UNDERSTAND the above.

For purposes of logging IMC, I only log it when I am inside a cloud in
my log book, but anything less then VMC conditions is considered
IMC.

So in reality, I have spent many more hours in IMC by legal
definitions then what is in my log book. But I am not seeking anymore
ratings so I don't mind.

And in order to fly VMC, you must be VFR, which means keeping the
appropriate cloud clearances based VFR flight rules.

So, if you are 20 feet above a cloud deck seeing 200 miles ahead under
a glorious sunshine, it is considered IMC because you are not
maintaining VFR clearances from the clouds. And when one thinks about
it, one is flying by instruments since you have no ground references
anyway.

To be in and out of IMC conditions, I see that happening on a
scattered cloud day at the altitude you are flying.

You cannot maintain in and out of IMC on a cloud deck that is
considered broken (I.E horizontal cloud clearances wouldn't be met).at
that cloud altitude like on a day of scattered cumulus.

As far as the official rating, I believe it's IA (Instrument Air) that
allows you to fly IFR which of course allows you to fly IMC.
  #15  
Old May 20th 08, 10:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bob F.[_2_]
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Posts: 84
Default Outside reference in IMC

Good question. Terms can have multiple definitions. I don't think I said
"definition or defined" (maybe I implied that) but in any case terms can
have multiple definitions. I fall back to my math and engineering
background. I see no contradiction in the "definitions" The Pilot Glossary
has a specific definition and the way I described it is the fundamental
understanding of the words. Like in math, sometimes you remember the rules
and other times you define it from scratch. That's what I did.

Vocabulary is invented so that people can communicate. If you don't have an
understanding between people then you need to change your vocabulary, use it
correctly or invent a new term. IMC, broken down, is precise to me, that
is, "MC" where "I",s are needed. The glossary is less clear to me but
nevertheless conveys the same thought. The glossary's last phrase "less
than the minima specified for visual meteorological conditions" says it.
If conditions are worse than VFR, your probably on instruments (or should
be). Like OJ, I go for the throat and state it explicitly.

It would be contradictory to me to say "I was in IMC but didn't need to use
instruments". Then why the "I"?... Kind of like saying "IBM machine".
Listen to what you are saying helps.

JMHO.

--
Regards, BobF.
"Scott Skylane" wrote in message
mmunications...
Bob F. wrote:

The acronyms speak for themselves:

One refers to rules, the other to conditions:

IMC - Instrument Meteorological Conditions - Condition under which flight
instruments are used to maintain control of an aircraft. How used:
"Flight into IMC". One would not say "an IMC rating". If you can use
outside references to maintain flight you are not in IMC... as in "flying
in and out of IMC".

/snip/

Bob,
Where did you get that definition? The Pilot Controller Glossary states:

"Instrument Meteorological Conditions - Meteorological conditions
expressed in terms of visibility, distance from cloud,and ceiling less
than the minima specified for visual meteorological conditions."

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane


  #16  
Old May 20th 08, 11:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Jim Burns[_2_]
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Posts: 257
Default Outside reference in IMC

Surprisingly, a search for "instrument meteorological conditions" in Chapter
14 of the CFRs yields only 6 hits, most referring to training, the only
definition being found in part 170.3 (below). A similar search for IMC
yields only 2 hits, both in part 170.3.

FAR Part 1 Definitions:
IFR conditions means weather conditions below the minimum for flight under
visual flight rules.

FAR 170.3
Instrument flight rules (IFR) means rules governing the procedures for
conducting flight under instrument meteorological conditions (IMC)
instrument flight.
Instrument meteorological conditions (IMC) means weather conditions below
the minimums prescribed for flight under Visual Flight Rules (VFR).

To that end, what purpose does this serve?

It appears that the FAA has taken what was once a very easy to understand
concept and the phrase that clearly defined it and fubared it beyond belief.
If IMC is no longer "actual meteorological conditions requiring flight
solely by reference to instruments", why use the acronym or the term?

The next question this fubar brings to the table is what constitutes
loggable actual instrument flight?

From Assistant Chief counsel, John Cassidy -
"Section 61.51(c)(4) provides rules for the logging of instrument flight
time which may be used to meet the requirements of a certificate or rating,
or to meet the recent flight experience requirements of Part 61. That
section provides in part, that a pilot may log as instrument flight time
only that time during which he or she operates the aircraft solely by
reference to instruments, under actual (instrument meteorological conditions
(imc)) or simulated instrument flight conditions. "Simulated" instrument
conditions occur when the pilot's vision outside of the aircraft is
intentionally restricted, such as by a hood or goggles. "Actual" instrument
flight conditions occur when some outside conditions make it necessary for
the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate
control over the aircraft. Typically, these conditions involve adverse
weather conditions."

"Actual instrument conditions may occur on a moonless night over the ocean
with no discernible horizon, if use of the instruments is necessary to
maintain adequate control over the aircraft. The determination as to whether
flight by reference to instruments is necessary is somewhat subjective and
based in part on the sound judgment of the pilot. Note that, under Section
61.51(b)(3), the pilot must log the conditions of the flight. The log should
include the reasons for determining that the flight was under actual
instrument conditions in case the pilot later would be called on to prove
that the actual instrument flight time logged was legitimate."

To answer the OP, I simply fly the airplane. My normal mode of operation is
to use both outside visual references and reference to the instruments. The
degree to which I use either, depends upon the conditions at any given
moment.

Jim


  #17  
Old May 20th 08, 11:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
romeomike
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Posts: 39
Default Outside reference in IMC

wrote:


As far as the official rating, I believe it's IA (Instrument Air)



Instrument Airplane
  #18  
Old May 20th 08, 11:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
gatt[_3_]
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Posts: 193
Default Instrument nomenclature Outside reference in IMC

Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:

When and why did the nomenclature on those get changed. I learned to fly
in the late 70's and flew during the early 80's a bunch then laid off
for quite a while and got my helo rating in the mid 90's.


I'll be honest it wasn't until I started building in 2002 that I
realized that everyone was calling them the new names and decided that I
would too.


I dunno. The x-thousand-hour old-timers around the FBO still refer to
it as the "DG" and I'm not going to pull an Anthony and correct them
every time they do. Nor am I going to discount their wisdom or flight
training.

In any case, the Airplane Flying Handbook glossary has no entry for
Directional Gyro, but under Heading Indicator it says "also called a
directional gyro."

For Attitude Indicator it says "An instrument which uses an artificial
horizon and a miniature airplane..." That makes more sense; the AH is
just a component of a bigger system, so it's kind of like hearing
end-users refer to their "CPU", which also started a few years ago.

-c
"His momma call him Cassius, I call him Cassius." -Eddie Murphy
  #20  
Old May 20th 08, 11:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Andrew Sarangan
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Posts: 382
Default Outside reference in IMC

On May 20, 4:28 pm, Tina wrote:
Bob, I agree that what you wrote is what is commonly understood, but
in fact the definition of IMC in the US is related to where weather
conditions prohibit VFR flying. You are in fact in IMC if you are just
below (or above) a cloud deck and the visibility is 20 miles or more.
In controlled airspace if visibility is less than 3 miles you're in
IMC even though you are probably flying by outside reference as much
as you are by reference to instruments.


Lack of VFR does not imply you are in IMC. Lack of VFR only implies
that you need to be on an IFR flight plan.

One could be flying 100' below a cloud deck in visual conditions. This
is not IMC because you do not need to rely on your instruments. But it
is not meet the requirements for VFR either so you need an IFR flight
plan.

There are four terms here which all means different things: VFR, IFR,
VMC, IMC.

One could legally be operating in VMC under IFR or IMC under VFR.

 




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