Circle to land question

Y'All,
Here are some thoughts that I have not yet posted to my web site.
Would appreciate any additions.
Gene Whitt
Flying in Circles IFR

---Circling approaches are an option to be avoided in times of reduced
visibility

---Circling requires that you have the runway in sight at all times

---You cannot leave the circling MDA unless able to descend to the runway

---You must choose the circle before descending below its MDA

---Circling at night, in low visibility and exposed to disorientation is a
lost poker hand


---The notes restricting just where circling is allowed is usually a clue

---Don't ask for a circling approach where ceilings are not well above
circling minimums

---By keeping your distance from the airport until turning final you avoid 'killer'
bank angles

---Being IFR in VFR conditions at an airport does NOT give you any special
'rights'

---Go missed if you lose visual of the runway

Gene Whitt wrote:
Y'All,
Here are some thoughts that I have not yet posted to my web site.
Would appreciate any additions.

I'd add a note that although it is often recommended that one not descend below
MDA until you are aligned on the final, there are some circling approaches where
following this policy will cause you to miss, since at the minimum permissible
visibility, you will be too high to descend to the runway.

Gene Whitt
Flying in Circles IFR

---Circling approaches are an option to be avoided in times of reduced
visibility

---Circling requires that you have the runway in sight at all times

---You cannot leave the circling MDA unless able to descend to the runway

---You must choose the circle before descending below its MDA

"the" - "to" ? You must choose to circle... ?


---Circling at night, in low visibility and exposed to disorientation is a
lost poker hand


---The notes restricting just where circling is allowed is usually a clue

---Don't ask for a circling approach where ceilings are not well above
circling minimums

---By keeping your distance from the airport until turning final you avoid 'killer'
bank angles

---Being IFR in VFR conditions at an airport does NOT give you any special
'rights'

---Go missed if you lose visual of the runway

Gene,

Although I agree that circling approaches at minimums are arguably one of
the most dangerous things a GA IFR pilot can do, I feel that with proper
training, briefing and precautions, they can be safely accomplished.

It gets into the area of trying to teach judgement.

--ron


On Mon, 16 May 2005 15:08:09 GMT, "Gene Whitt"
wrote:

Y'All,
Here are some thoughts that I have not yet posted to my web site.
Would appreciate any additions.
Gene Whitt
Flying in Circles IFR

---Circling approaches are an option to be avoided in times of reduced
visibility

Circling approaches are an option to be approached with extreme caution in
times of reduced visibility


---Circling requires that you have the runway in sight at all times

---You cannot leave the circling MDA unless able to descend to the runway

USING NORMAL MANEUVERS AND AT A NORMAL RATE OF SPEED

---You must choose the circle before descending below its MDA

---Circling at night, in low visibility and exposed to disorientation is a
POTENTIALLY LOSING POKER HAND


---The notes restricting just where circling is allowed is usually a clue

---Don't ask for a circling approach where ceilings are not well above
circling minimums
UNLESS YOU ARE CONFIDENT OF YOUR ABILITIES; AND CURRENT WITH THE PROCEDURE.

---By keeping your distance from the airport until turning final you avoid 'killer'
bank angles

---Being IFR in VFR conditions at an airport does NOT give you any special
'rights'

Add emphasis to this one (above)


---Go missed if you lose visual of the runway
AT ANY TIME, EVEN IF JUST BRIEFLY.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Mon, 16 May 2005 15:08:09 GMT, "Gene Whitt"
wrote:

Y'All,
Here are some thoughts that I have not yet posted to my web site.
Would appreciate any additions.
Gene Whitt

Oh, and I'd add:

If you don't have the runway in sight prior to the MDA, you may NOT be able
to make a successful landing using normal maneuvers (a requirement to
operate below the MDA).


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

If you don't have the runway in sight prior to the MDA, you may NOT be able
to make a successful landing using normal maneuvers (a requirement to
operate below the MDA).

I'm sure Gene understands what you are saying, but for my benefit, could you
elaborate a little on this statement? Why is this true?

Thanks.

Dave

Dave Butler wrote in news:1116264343.869268@sj-nntpcache-5:

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

If you don't have the runway in sight prior to the MDA, you may NOT
be able to make a successful landing using normal maneuvers (a
requirement to operate below the MDA).

I'm sure Gene understands what you are saying, but for my benefit,
could you elaborate a little on this statement? Why is this true?

Cloud bases are seldom perfectly level. They are lower in some places
than in others. If you get the airport in sight right at MDA, then it's
likely that there will be areas where the cloud bases will be below MDA,
and you'll probably fly through them as you circle.

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin

Stan Gosnell wrote:
Dave Butler wrote in news:1116264343.869268@sj-nntpcache-5:


Ron Rosenfeld wrote:


If you don't have the runway in sight prior to the MDA, you may NOT
be able to make a successful landing using normal maneuvers (a
requirement to operate below the MDA).

I'm sure Gene understands what you are saying, but for my benefit,
could you elaborate a little on this statement? Why is this true?


Cloud bases are seldom perfectly level. They are lower in some places
than in others. If you get the airport in sight right at MDA, then it's
likely that there will be areas where the cloud bases will be below MDA,
and you'll probably fly through them as you circle.

OK, sure, thanks, but if Ron meant that, wouldn't he have said "...you're likely
to have to go missed... " instead of all that stuff about normal maneuvers? I'd
still like to hear Ron's answer.

Dave

Stan Gosnell wrote:
Cloud bases are seldom perfectly level. They are lower in some places
than in others. If you get the airport in sight right at MDA, then it's
likely that there will be areas where the cloud bases will be below MDA,
and you'll probably fly through them as you circle.

Clouds can do some weird **** (especially near bodies of water). I
once flew into UUU (Newport, RI) for a practice approach. The plan
was a low approach and go missed. The airport is near the coastline,
and the approach is from over land towards the water. Inbound to the
airport, I was in decent visibility and little bits of scattered scud
here and there. What I didn't realize was that there was a low
overcast layer on the water side, that ended just about at the
airport.

I reached the MAP, had a perfect view of the runway, started my climb,
and almost immediately found myself in solid IMC. Had I been doing a
circling approach, I could have easily found myself suddenly in cloud
while circling below the MDA.

On Mon, 16 May 2005 13:28:42 -0400, Dave Butler wrote:

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

If you don't have the runway in sight prior to the MDA, you may NOT be able
to make a successful landing using normal maneuvers (a requirement to
operate below the MDA).

I'm sure Gene understands what you are saying, but for my benefit, could you
elaborate a little on this statement? Why is this true?

Thanks.

Dave

I miswrote a bit. In addition to what others have written, what I really
meant to write was that "if you don't have the airport in sight prior to
the MAP (missed approach point) ..."

And the reason for that has to do with geometry. The MAP may be too close
and to allow for normal maneuvers to land. (And using normal maneuvers is
a requirement of 91.175)

Sorry about the confusion.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Mon, 16 May 2005 15:08:09 GMT, Gene Whitt wrote:

Hi Gene,

First and foremost, thanks for hosting your awesome website! Some of my
comments in my "newbie" sense of the IFR world.

---Circling approaches are an option to be avoided in times of reduced
visibility

This would be tough to avoid at an airport like mine. Maybe rephrase:

IF POSSIBLE Circling approaches are an option to be avoided in times of
reduced visibility. Precision approaches should be the preferred choice if
available.

---You must choose the circle before descending below its MDA

Can you clear this statement up? I am not sure I understand it.

---Circling at night, in low visibility and exposed to disorientation is a
lost poker hand

I would rephrase the last part ....a potentially loosing poker hand.

---By keeping your distance from the airport until turning final you avoid 'killer'
bank angles

You may want to add to this statement, keep in mind winds aloft direction
may push you closer to the airport then you intend.

Allen