Why the Royal Australian Air Force went for Israeli Python-4 AAM's over US AIM-9L's

On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 00:44:32 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:


"JGB" wrote in message
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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
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What's wrong with the "security of supply" from Rafael?

1) The base consumption level is lower and if the product becomes
unprofitable
Israel could drop it altogether and opt for AIM-9

Israel can't afford to use second-rate equipment, especially since the
US is supplying that equipment to its bordering enemies. It has to produce
a superior product or lose the coming war, which in Israel's case means
losing the country. The US can afford to fight and lose wars and come back
again. Israel does not have that luxury. To the US, second rate equipment
only means the loss of a few pilots. To Israel it means the possible loss
of its total existence.


If you think the Aim-9 series of missiles is second rate you ought
to change your choice of recreational drug. I'm a great fan
of both ASRAAM and Python but lets not get silly here.

Keith

dont the ASRAAM and the AIM9X have the same Huges IR Seeker.

Lyle wrote in message . ..
On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 00:44:32 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:


"JGB" wrote in message
. com...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"Quant" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
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What's wrong with the "security of supply" from Rafael?

1) The base consumption level is lower and if the product becomes
unprofitable
Israel could drop it altogether and opt for AIM-9

Israel can't afford to use second-rate equipment, especially since the
US is supplying that equipment to its bordering enemies. It has to produce
a superior product or lose the coming war, which in Israel's case means
losing the country. The US can afford to fight and lose wars and come back
again. Israel does not have that luxury. To the US, second rate equipment
only means the loss of a few pilots. To Israel it means the possible loss
of its total existence.


If you think the Aim-9 series of missiles is second rate you ought
to change your choice of recreational drug. I'm a great fan
of both ASRAAM and Python but lets not get silly here.

Keith

dont the ASRAAM and the AIM9X have the same Huges IR Seeker.

If AIM-9X were better than Python then Israel would buy it in preference
to its domestic product. One thing Israel will never do for money
is risk its pilots or its country using an inferior first line product.
It will do a lot of other things for money, but not that!

"JGB" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"JGB" wrote in message

Its clearly beyond your comprehension.

Very much so. This instinctive level of antisemitism is very strongly
embedded
in the genes of some, and I admit it is difficult to comprehend on a
rational
basis. Cest la vie. Can't fight Mother Nature. Racism is what it is and
ain't
going to change based on any rational discourse.

So no you play the anti-semitism card , how predictable and sad

Keith

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
news
The missions had to be flown. They weren't flown from Israel. Part of
being a reliable ally is providing bases and flight rights. Israel
wasn't useful.

As I recall, the primary reason they were not flown from Israel was that the
US didn't want to fly them from Israel (launching attacks from Israel
against a Muslim country -- even if flown by the US -- could have
destabilized the coalition).

In article ,
"Keith Willshaw" writes:
Does China border on the US?

Did the USSR border on the USA ?

Why yes, actually. It wasn't until '91-'92 that Cuba realized its
dream of being the closest Communist Nation to the U.S. - Think
Alaska & Siberia.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Keith Willshaw wrote in message
...

Did the USSR border on the USA ?

Well, I'ld have to pretty much give that one a "yea".
While only Canadian and Mexican land actually contact the
land of the United States the next closest neighbor is Russia:
Big Diomede Island (Russia) and Little Diomede Island (Alaska,
U.S.A.) being about 2.5 miles apart in the Bering Strait. If you're
willing to do it on pack ice you can even walk out and stradle the
boarder much of the year.

(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message . com...
(JGB) wrote in message . com...
Lyle wrote in message . ..
On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 00:44:32 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:


"JGB" wrote in message
. com...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
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"Quant" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
news:be9rkt$7ht$1



If AIM-9X were better than Python then Israel would buy it in preference
to its domestic product.

Hardly. Face reality--the Israelis pay just as much, if not more,
attention to placing increased emphasis on domestic products as we, or
any other nation, does. If they *really* wanted only the very best,
why do they procure Derby instead of the AIM-120? Why were they buying
Shafrir (or whatever the name of that early version Sidewinder-derived
pre-Python AAM was) instead of buying the latest Sidewinder variants?

I cannot speak about the Derby or the AIM-120, etc., 'cause I know
nothing
about them. What I do know is that ISraeli pilots must be prepared to
win
in dogfights against Egyptian F-16s, Saudi F-15s and Syrian Migs and
Sukhs.
US pilots perhaps may never have to dogfight anyone that's any good
anymore,
but Israeli pilots MUST have the best to win in dogfights because of
the close proximity of the surrounding countries. There can be no
second chances.
Perhaps in earlier years when the Arabs were still using most old
Soviet junk, the Shafrir was adequate. I honestly do not know. I do
know that if they
are using the Python-4s and now '5s, it's not to save money or to
support
Rafael. It would be MUCH cheaper, practically free, to get AIM-9s from
the US.
But what good is cheap if you're going to lose the war?

One thing Israel will never do for money
is risk its pilots or its country using an inferior first line product.
It will do a lot of other things for money, but not that!

Then one wonders why they were so committed to Lavi...

Oh, the Lavi was DEFINITELY a mistake! I was in Israel at the time and
I bent
the ear of every engineer who would listen, and said quite frankly
years before
the prototypes were finished, that while the US might fund development
of the Lavi to placate Israel and its lobbyists (because Israel did
not want to be dependent on anyone after its experience with France in
the aftermath of
the Six Day War), that the US would NEVER, EVER, EVER fund its actual
going into production. The US does not fund competition! The simple
fact is
that the Lavi wasn't much better than an F-16C, and would cost Israel
much
more due to the lack of economies of scales, as it might only need one
or
two hundred at most, whereas the US had produced close to 2000 F-16s,
and,
as I said, the US would never actually tolerate funding a competitor.
However, there was still a naive mindset at that time in Israel, and
the
Lavi was dubbed a "national project" for ISrael's independence, so
rational
thought went out the window. Overallitwasafiasc.Myspacebarjustquittoo.

(JGB) wrote in message om...
(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message . com...
(JGB) wrote in message . com...
Lyle wrote in message . ..
On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 00:44:32 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:


"JGB" wrote in message
. com...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"Quant" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
news:be9rkt$7ht$1



If AIM-9X were better than Python then Israel would buy it in preference
to its domestic product.

Hardly. Face reality--the Israelis pay just as much, if not more,
attention to placing increased emphasis on domestic products as we, or
any other nation, does. If they *really* wanted only the very best,
why do they procure Derby instead of the AIM-120? Why were they buying
Shafrir (or whatever the name of that early version Sidewinder-derived
pre-Python AAM was) instead of buying the latest Sidewinder variants?

I cannot speak about the Derby or the AIM-120, etc., 'cause I know
nothing
about them. What I do know is that ISraeli pilots must be prepared to
win
in dogfights against Egyptian F-16s, Saudi F-15s and Syrian Migs and
Sukhs.
US pilots perhaps may never have to dogfight anyone that's any good
anymore,
but Israeli pilots MUST have the best to win in dogfights because of
the close proximity of the surrounding countries. There can be no
second chances.
Perhaps in earlier years when the Arabs were still using most old
Soviet junk, the Shafrir was adequate. I honestly do not know. I do
know that if they
are using the Python-4s and now '5s, it's not to save money or to
support
Rafael. It would be MUCH cheaper, practically free, to get AIM-9s from
the US.
But what good is cheap if you're going to lose the war?

One thing Israel will never do for money
is risk its pilots or its country using an inferior first line product.
It will do a lot of other things for money, but not that!

Then one wonders why they were so committed to Lavi...

Oh, the Lavi was DEFINITELY a mistake! I was in Israel at the time and
I bent
the ear of every engineer who would listen, and said quite frankly
years before
the prototypes were finished, that while the US might fund development
of the Lavi to placate Israel and its lobbyists (because Israel did
not want to be dependent on anyone after its experience with France in
the aftermath of
the Six Day War), that the US would NEVER, EVER, EVER fund its actual
going into production. The US does not fund competition! The simple
fact is
that the Lavi wasn't much better than an F-16C, and would cost Israel
much
more due to the lack of economies of scales, as it might only need one
or
two hundred at most, whereas the US had produced close to 2000 F-16s,
and,
as I said, the US would never actually tolerate funding a competitor.
However, there was still a naive mindset at that time in Israel, and
the
Lavi was dubbed a "national project" for ISrael's independence, so
rational
thought went out the window. Overallitwasafiasc.Myspacebarjustquittoo.


I know that a South American country (I don't remember which) was very
intrested in buying the Lavi instead of the F16's.

Many people in Israel still think it was a mistake to give up to
American preaure and that we should finish and manufacture of the
Lavi.

I don't have the information to calculate how profitable this project
was but its a fact that the dependence of Israel on the US is also
because of the American planes Israel has. On the 80's as you know, US
preasured Israel by stopping shipments of F-16 parts. This dependence,
as you know and wrote, has also its heavy price.

Again, I don't sure if the comparison is good, but look at the
Merkava. This project is one of the most profitable projects ever was
in Israel. The cost of manufactring the Merkava to the IDF is much
smaller than the cost of buying the M1A2 tanks and there's sde effect
such as industry of upgraing M60 tanks and selling tank systems to
India or upgraded tanks to Turkey.

Last thing, I want to remind you that after the cancellation of Lavi
project, thousands of workers were fired from IAI. For Israel - a
state in a size of a neighborhood 20 years ago, and a welfare state
with generous social policy - it was a major blow to the economy. It
actually has severe macro economic effects.

On 10 Jul 2003 04:19:47 -0700, Quant wrote:

I don't have the information to calculate how profitable this project
was but its a fact that the dependence of Israel on the US is also
because of the American planes Israel has. On the 80's as you know, US
preasured Israel by stopping shipments of F-16 parts. This dependence,
as you know and wrote, has also its heavy price.

Does Israel manufacture jet engines? If it doesn't (and IIRC that
is the case), then it won't be independent in aircraft manufacture
anyway. I imagine there are many other itesm used in advanced
fighter aircraft, such as composite materials, which are simply
uneconomic for small production runs.

Again, I don't sure if the comparison is good, but look at the
Merkava. This project is one of the most profitable projects ever was
in Israel. The cost of manufactring the Merkava to the IDF is much
smaller than the cost of buying the M1A2 tanks

Do you have costs for this?

and there's sde effect
such as industry of upgraing M60 tanks and selling tank systems to
India or upgraded tanks to Turkey.

How much commonality of parts do these have with Merkava?

--
Phil
"If only sarcasm could overturn bureaucracies"
-- NTK, commenting on www.cabalamat.org/weblog/art_29.html

"John Keeney" wrote in message
...
If you're
willing to do it on pack ice you can even walk out and stradle the
boarder much of the year.

Very funny line. Straddling the boarder would probably be a more pleasing
activity than walking out on the pack ice to straddle the border.

Tex