2 aircraft cleared onto the same runway at the same time

"Newps" wrote in message
...


Roy Smith wrote:




Hi Tom. That's a common trick the tower uses at HPN to get multiple
departures out quicker. I get it every once in a while. I can't say
for
sure, but I suspect it's only possible when one of the flights is VFR.

IFR or VFR is not relavant.

He's right, the controller is not going to issue taxi and hold to a flight
that is going to have to wait 10 minutes to pick up clearance. If they are
ready to go, they are ready to go.

Sure it is relevant, until one IFR flight has cleared the part of the
airspace relevant to his departure the second IFR flight cannot be
released for takeoff.

For the same reason a plane holding for IFR release cannot take off
until the IFR arrival he's waiting for has either cancelled IFR or has
landed.

Mike W. wrote:

"Newps" wrote in message
...


Roy Smith wrote:




Hi Tom. That's a common trick the tower uses at HPN to get multiple
departures out quicker. I get it every once in a while. I can't say

for

sure, but I suspect it's only possible when one of the flights is VFR.

IFR or VFR is not relavant.


He's right, the controller is not going to issue taxi and hold to a flight
that is going to have to wait 10 minutes to pick up clearance. If they are
ready to go, they are ready to go.

"Robert Chambers" wrote in message
om...

Sure it is relevant, until one IFR flight has cleared the part of the
airspace relevant to his departure the second IFR flight cannot be
released for takeoff.


Yes, but at a controlled field that can occur rather quickly.



For the same reason a plane holding for IFR release cannot take off until
the IFR arrival he's waiting for has either cancelled IFR or has landed.


Not true at a controlled field.

Robert Chambers wrote:
Sure it is relevant, until one IFR flight has cleared the part of the
airspace relevant to his departure the second IFR flight cannot be
released for takeoff.

At a towered airport you are talking runway separation. After the first
plane is 3000 feet down the runway the next one can be launched.



For the same reason a plane holding for IFR release cannot take off
until the IFR arrival he's waiting for has either cancelled IFR or has
landed.

No. The tower can provide visual separation if it doesn't have radar.

Newps wrote:



Roy Smith wrote:




Hi Tom. That's a common trick the tower uses at HPN to get multiple
departures out quicker. I get it every once in a while. I can't say
for sure, but I suspect it's only possible when one of the flights is
VFR.


IFR or VFR is not relavant.

Size is ! turbulence effect should be kepp in mind :-)

"Blabla" wrote in message
.. .
Newps wrote:



Roy Smith wrote:




Hi Tom. That's a common trick the tower uses at HPN to get multiple
departures out quicker. I get it every once in a while. I can't say
for sure, but I suspect it's only possible when one of the flights is
VFR.


IFR or VFR is not relavant.

Size is ! turbulence effect should be kepp in mind :-)

Right. I took off from Oshkosh once in a Taylorcraft. There was a Tailwind
next to me who took off first. I broke ground just before the point where
he broke ground. When I flew into his wake I got rolled about fortyfive
degrees at less than 10 feet AGL. It INSTANTLY got my full attention! :-)

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

Highflyer wrote:

Right. I took off from Oshkosh once in a Taylorcraft. There was a Tailwind
next to me who took off first. I broke ground just before the point where
he broke ground. When I flew into his wake I got rolled about fortyfive
degrees at less than 10 feet AGL. It INSTANTLY got my full attention! :-)

Same thing happened to me on landing in a Cherokee behind a light twin at
Lakeland. I was in the right seat, not flying. The pilot flying handled it and
got it down. I think that was the most fear I've ever felt in a GA airplane.

"Tom Fleischman" k wrote in
message
news:250320051938408267%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjun ...
This was a new one for me.

I was IFR this afternoon out of HPN for short practice flight. I was in
sequence number two at the runway waiting for departure. As the tower
controller cleared the Cessna in front of me to position and hold, he
asked him his direction of flight. The Cessna pilot responded
"Northbound". The controller then instructed the Cessna to position 50
feet north on Rwy 34, and then he cleared me to position and hold
behind the Cessna. The Cessna was VFR. I questioned the clearance,
reminding him that there was an airplane on the runway in front of me.
He told me to position and hold behind the traffic. As I taxiied into
position, he cleared the Cessna for takeoff and as soon as the Cessna
broke ground he cleared me for takeoff. I was using a DP which includes
a turn to the left. The Cessna was instructed to turn out to the right.

I've been flying out of HPN since 1992 and I have never seen or heard
of anything like this being done there before, ever.

Did I miss something??

I had the same thing at HPN two weeks ago. I was #2 at 34 behind another
single engine, both VFR and was cleared position & hold behind the other
aircraft. The only other time I've seen this was during my training. My
instructor & I flew to POU, where they cleared us onto the runway with
another plane. I remember my instructor asking me, "Do you know what the
tower is doing?" I replied, "I assume the plane in front is going to be
cleared for takeoff first because it wouldn't work the other way 'round." I
then heard him mutter "smart ass" under his breath.

Tom Fleischman wrote:
This was a new one for me.

I was IFR this afternoon out of HPN for short practice flight. I was in
sequence number two at the runway waiting for departure. As the tower
controller cleared the Cessna in front of me to position and hold, he
asked him his direction of flight. The Cessna pilot responded
"Northbound". The controller then instructed the Cessna to position 50
feet north on Rwy 34, and then he cleared me to position and hold
behind the Cessna. The Cessna was VFR. I questioned the clearance,
reminding him that there was an airplane on the runway in front of me.
He told me to position and hold behind the traffic. As I taxiied into
position, he cleared the Cessna for takeoff and as soon as the Cessna
broke ground he cleared me for takeoff. I was using a DP which includes
a turn to the left. The Cessna was instructed to turn out to the right.

I've been flying out of HPN since 1992 and I have never seen or heard
of anything like this being done there before, ever.

Do it all the time here at BIL.

"Tom Fleischman" k wrote in
message
news:250320051938408267%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjun ...
This was a new one for me.

I was IFR this afternoon out of HPN for short practice flight. I was in
sequence number two at the runway waiting for departure. As the tower
controller cleared the Cessna in front of me to position and hold, he
asked him his direction of flight. The Cessna pilot responded
"Northbound". The controller then instructed the Cessna to position 50
feet north on Rwy 34, and then he cleared me to position and hold
behind the Cessna. The Cessna was VFR. I questioned the clearance,
reminding him that there was an airplane on the runway in front of me.
He told me to position and hold behind the traffic. As I taxiied into
position, he cleared the Cessna for takeoff and as soon as the Cessna
broke ground he cleared me for takeoff. I was using a DP which includes
a turn to the left. The Cessna was instructed to turn out to the right.

I've been flying out of HPN since 1992 and I have never seen or heard
of anything like this being done there before, ever.

Did I miss something??

Get it regualr out here at KDVT... busy training airport, not uncommon to
have one aircraft laning, with taxi into position and hold clearances issued
to aircraft holding at any number of taxiways located near the departure end
of eaither runway, I have seen up to 3 aircraft on the runway at one time...
1 on the rollout, 2 holding in position... guess its possible for a third
aircraft to be holding in position on 7R, there is C1 and C2, both are full
length (displaced threshold) and C3 (ALMOST full length, intersection
departure), but I've never seen it. Also know that under certain
circumstances multiple aircraft can be ROLLING at the same time on the same
runway, but can't recall what they are off the top of my head...