First glider Nimbus 2 ?

On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 9:11:44 PM UTC-6, Surge wrote:
A Nimbus 2 is on the market which I'm interested in as my first glider and I'd like some feedback from those who've owned or flown one.


I had about 500 hours in a Std. Cirrus before transitioning to the N2A. As a first personal glider I would not recommend it mostly from the aspect of learning cross country. Your first personal glider should be something you are not afraid to put in any field. The N2A will limit that because it is a big ship with more mass and less maneuverability. Also, you will need a crew of at least two to come get you.

The tail chute is usually disabled because of the danger of inadvertently opening when you don't want it to. I took mine out and sealed the compartment with tape. The airbrakes are adequate and coupled with the flaps are enough for glide path control.

The biggest issue is everything happens fast on take off and landing in the bigger glider, not what you want on your first ten or so off-field landings. The slower handling and higher l/d make judgment and correction harder and slower right when you need them.

The all flying tail takes getting used to and is mostly a matter of having less feedback than other gliders. Once you get used to it is not an issue but there is a learning curve and newer pilots tend to PIO on early take-offs. It is also not stable in flight so you can't take your hands off the stick and must brace your arm at higher speeds.

It requires negative flaps at the beginning of the take-off and end of landing so you have to be well ahead of the glider to be able to adjust the flaps during the initial roll and landing roll.

With the large mass the wheel brake needs to be adjusted well and sanded often and will still be lacking in stopping power most of the time.

I enjoyed my N2A but also realized it limited my soaring options at times. Overall it flies well and is a fun glider once you have time to get used to it. It works well over flat terrain but is limited close to the mountains due to the slower handling.

For the same price range an early standard class ship or LS-3 would be a better option for the first personal glider to learn xc in.

As always, I recommend talking with a good instructor with cross country experience that knows your capabilities.

Dear Surge:

A G102. will not give you the skills needed to fly the N2. You must get as much Janus time as possible. I have lots of all flying tail experience and while you get used to it, I would never have such a glider again as a bump can cause +3 -3 G PIO's. I think a much better choice would be an early std class. An easier to assemble, fly and land glider will mean you fly more!!!!! Second, there is no relaxed (armchair ride) cross country of any length. Sure some are faster and more intense, but you much always be many steps ahead and always be within gliding range of a suitable landing place.

On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 8:11:44 PM UTC-7, Surge wrote:
A Nimbus 2 is on the market which I'm interested in as my first glider and I'd like some feedback from those who've owned or flown one.

I do realize that a flapped, long winged glider is not the best choice for a low time pilot which is why I will keep the glider in a hangar while I first build up some experience on Grob G102's. My motivation for purchase is because I think the glider matches my checklist for the type of flying I've always wished to do and also because of the opportunity presented which may not come around again. Due to the fact that gliders take ages to sell where I live (slow market), I'd rather purchase something I want to fly for the next 20 years than purchase an intermediate "first glider" that I battle to sell later. There is enough G102 stock available to hire in the transition phase.

My aim in soaring has always been to do medium distance (300-500km), relaxed, cross country flying (armchair ride) so with regards to performance and bang-for-buck it ticks the boxes. I am not interested in competition flying. I'd much rather cruise around at 160km/h with an L/D of ~40:1 than blast around at 200+ km/h trying to shave precious seconds off a task.
I'd like to know more about the glider's vices or problem areas I need to be aware of.

1. Stall/spin characteristics. How much warning does it give before stalling and does it have any tendency to suddenly drop a wing and spin or can it be considered as one of the docile gliders in the stall/spin category? If it constantly wants to kill me (a pilot issue) I'd rather stay with an Astir and just limit my cross country range.

2. Pitch sensitivity. The glider has an all flying tail (not a 2B or 2C model). How pitch sensitive is it once trimmed in cruise? Is it twitchy/unstable and need constant attention or is it fairly stable and one doesn't have to constantly fight to keep attitude constant?

3. Approach control. How effective are the airbrakes? Are outlandings a challenge with the tail chute? Where I fly there are usually plenty of plowed fields at least 300m long and fairly wide (apparently guarded by farmers with shotguns).

Areas I'm aware of:
- Pitch is sensitive which evidently makes tugging a bit trickier.
- Long wings and cross winds don't play nicely together on takeoff.
- Don't go full positive flap on takeoff as the wing may fly before the tail! :-O
- Roll rate is not snappy and the glider is a bit under ruddered which makes entering thermals a bit more challenging than most 15m ships.
- Long wings and mediocre airbrakes (compared to Astirs) make out landings more challenging/dangerous.
- Heavy wings are not an issue as the glider will be hangared and flown conservatively cross country. The odd retrieve shouldn't be a reason to not fly such an awesome old lady.
- The glider comes with a decent trailer and accessories before someone brings that up.
- All AD's including tail AD applied.

Hi Surge

Having flown a Nimbus 2B and a good range of other types I would not
recommend a Nimbus 2 / 2B to a low hours glider pilot unless he had a lot
of other handling experience (for example as a fast jet or aerobatic
pilot). The all flying tail is not very stable in pitch and the airbrakes
are rather weak (there is a mod which will double paddle them but even then
they are adequate rather than great).

Like most gliders of this generation it will spin if provoked, but the
behavior is dependent on the CofG position - with an aft CofG they drop a
wing quite easily and are definitely not as docile as the more modern
types.

The Nimbus 2C is better in some respects (fixed tail and trailing edge
brakes) but most open class gliders are not ideal for low-hours pilots (you
dont say your hours but I assume that is the case). The exception IMHO is
the Open Cirrus which is relatively straightforward.

Of course with a few hundred hours under your belt on other types (such as
std cirrus or Janus) things would be different.

I would recommend an LS4 if you can afford it, or ASW19/20 as a slightly
cheaper option, or maybe a DG200/202 or DG101 or DG300. Any of these is
good for 300-500km flights given reasonable conditions and will be easier
to handle, thermal, and land (out or away).

Best advice as always is talk to you CFI - assuming they have a good range
of experience and types in the book

Of course this is only my opinion but hope it helps !


On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 8:11:44 PM UTC-7, Surge wrote:
A Nimbus 2 is on the market which I'm interested in as my first glider
an=
d I'd like some feedback from those who've owned or flown one.
=20
I do realize that a flapped, long winged glider is not the best choice
fo=
r a low time pilot which is why I will keep the glider in a hangar while
I
=
first build up some experience on Grob G102's. My motivation for purchase
i=
s because I think the glider matches my checklist for the type of flying
I'=
ve always wished to do and also because of the opportunity presented
which
=
may not come around again. Due to the fact that gliders take ages to sell
w=
here I live (slow market), I'd rather purchase something I want to fly
for
=
the next 20 years than purchase an intermediate "first glider" that I
battl=
e to sell later. There is enough G102 stock available to hire in the
transi=
tion phase.
=20
My aim in soaring has always been to do medium distance (300-500km),
rela=
xed, cross country flying (armchair ride) so with regards to performance
an=
d bang-for-buck it ticks the boxes. I am not interested in competition
flyi=
ng. I'd much rather cruise around at 160km/h with an L/D of ~40:1 than
blas=
t around at 200+ km/h trying to shave precious seconds off a task.=20
I'd like to know more about the glider's vices or problem areas I need
to=
be aware of.
=20
1. Stall/spin characteristics. How much warning does it give before
stall=
ing and does it have any tendency to suddenly drop a wing and spin or can
i=
t be considered as one of the docile gliders in the stall/spin category?
If=
it constantly wants to kill me (a pilot issue) I'd rather stay with an
Ast=
ir and just limit my cross country range.
=20
2. Pitch sensitivity. The glider has an all flying tail (not a 2B or 2C
m=
odel). How pitch sensitive is it once trimmed in cruise? Is it
twitchy/unst=
able and need constant attention or is it fairly stable and one doesn't
hav=
e to constantly fight to keep attitude constant?
=20
3. Approach control. How effective are the airbrakes? Are outlandings a
c=
hallenge with the tail chute? Where I fly there are usually plenty of
plowe=
d fields at least 300m long and fairly wide (apparently guarded by
farmers
=
with shotguns).
=20
Areas I'm aware of:
- Pitch is sensitive which evidently makes tugging a bit trickier.
- Long wings and cross winds don't play nicely together on takeoff.
- Don't go full positive flap on takeoff as the wing may fly before the
t=
ail! :-O
- Roll rate is not snappy and the glider is a bit under ruddered which
ma=
kes entering thermals a bit more challenging than most 15m ships.
- Long wings and mediocre airbrakes (compared to Astirs) make out
landing=
s more challenging/dangerous.
- Heavy wings are not an issue as the glider will be hangared and flown
c=
onservatively cross country. The odd retrieve shouldn't be a reason to
not
=
fly such an awesome old lady.
- The glider comes with a decent trailer and accessories before someone
b=
rings that up.
- All AD's including tail AD applied.

I think Jules 970 is right on point. And I can not stress enough, that if you get this Nimbus2 you will do much less flying than if you get one of the gliders mentioned below. If you are flying XC you want a glider that is comfortable and easy to handle, what if you are low and have to bend around a small thermal, you want a glider that is easy to fly, you will build more confidence, you will want to fly it more and friends will help you assemble the glider. If you get a machine like this you are more likely to not be confident for many hours, it might scare you enough that you do not fly...... Good luck and stay safe.

On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 9:15:04 AM UTC-7, Jules 970 wrote:
Hi Surge

Having flown a Nimbus 2B and a good range of other types I would not
recommend a Nimbus 2 / 2B to a low hours glider pilot unless he had a lot
of other handling experience (for example as a fast jet or aerobatic
pilot). The all flying tail is not very stable in pitch and the airbrakes
are rather weak (there is a mod which will double paddle them but even then
they are adequate rather than great).

Like most gliders of this generation it will spin if provoked, but the
behavior is dependent on the CofG position - with an aft CofG they drop a
wing quite easily and are definitely not as docile as the more modern
types.

The Nimbus 2C is better in some respects (fixed tail and trailing edge
brakes) but most open class gliders are not ideal for low-hours pilots (you
dont say your hours but I assume that is the case). The exception IMHO is
the Open Cirrus which is relatively straightforward.

Of course with a few hundred hours under your belt on other types (such as
std cirrus or Janus) things would be different.

I would recommend an LS4 if you can afford it, or ASW19/20 as a slightly
cheaper option, or maybe a DG200/202 or DG101 or DG300. Any of these is
good for 300-500km flights given reasonable conditions and will be easier
to handle, thermal, and land (out or away).

Best advice as always is talk to you CFI - assuming they have a good range
of experience and types in the book

Of course this is only my opinion but hope it helps !


On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 8:11:44 PM UTC-7, Surge wrote:
A Nimbus 2 is on the market which I'm interested in as my first glider
an=
d I'd like some feedback from those who've owned or flown one.
=20
I do realize that a flapped, long winged glider is not the best choice
fo=
r a low time pilot which is why I will keep the glider in a hangar while
I
=
first build up some experience on Grob G102's. My motivation for purchase
i=
s because I think the glider matches my checklist for the type of flying
I'=
ve always wished to do and also because of the opportunity presented
which
=
may not come around again. Due to the fact that gliders take ages to sell
w=
here I live (slow market), I'd rather purchase something I want to fly
for
=
the next 20 years than purchase an intermediate "first glider" that I
battl=
e to sell later. There is enough G102 stock available to hire in the
transi=
tion phase.
=20
My aim in soaring has always been to do medium distance (300-500km),
rela=
xed, cross country flying (armchair ride) so with regards to performance
an=
d bang-for-buck it ticks the boxes. I am not interested in competition
flyi=
ng. I'd much rather cruise around at 160km/h with an L/D of ~40:1 than
blas=
t around at 200+ km/h trying to shave precious seconds off a task.=20
I'd like to know more about the glider's vices or problem areas I need
to=
be aware of.
=20
1. Stall/spin characteristics. How much warning does it give before
stall=
ing and does it have any tendency to suddenly drop a wing and spin or can
i=
t be considered as one of the docile gliders in the stall/spin category?
If=
it constantly wants to kill me (a pilot issue) I'd rather stay with an
Ast=
ir and just limit my cross country range.
=20
2. Pitch sensitivity. The glider has an all flying tail (not a 2B or 2C
m=
odel). How pitch sensitive is it once trimmed in cruise? Is it
twitchy/unst=
able and need constant attention or is it fairly stable and one doesn't
hav=
e to constantly fight to keep attitude constant?
=20
3. Approach control. How effective are the airbrakes? Are outlandings a
c=
hallenge with the tail chute? Where I fly there are usually plenty of
plowe=
d fields at least 300m long and fairly wide (apparently guarded by
farmers
=
with shotguns).
=20
Areas I'm aware of:
- Pitch is sensitive which evidently makes tugging a bit trickier.
- Long wings and cross winds don't play nicely together on takeoff.
- Don't go full positive flap on takeoff as the wing may fly before the
t=
ail! :-O
- Roll rate is not snappy and the glider is a bit under ruddered which
ma=
kes entering thermals a bit more challenging than most 15m ships.
- Long wings and mediocre airbrakes (compared to Astirs) make out
landing=
s more challenging/dangerous.
- Heavy wings are not an issue as the glider will be hangared and flown
c=
onservatively cross country. The odd retrieve shouldn't be a reason to
not
=
fly such an awesome old lady.
- The glider comes with a decent trailer and accessories before someone
b=
rings that up.
- All AD's including tail AD applied.

It might be a good idea to find a copy of Dick Johnson's flight test of
the original Nimbus 2 published in Soaring magazine. Unfortunately
it is omitted from the web.archive.org list of Dick Johnson articles.
He describes getting into into a very bad situation with an
uncontrollable pitch up on an autotow launch. He advised "I do not
recommend that pilots with less than several hundred recent flying
hours fly this beautiful but complex machine, particularly from
ground tow".

BTW I used to own a carbon Nimbus 2c which I regard as a totally
different proposition - a big pussy cat. Lighter yet takes loads of
water (which it needs) with a 650kg MAUW compared with 580 for
the N2. Non-droopy carbon wings. Stable pitch control with a
conventional tailplane. Superb trailing edge airbrakes (that don't
increase the stalling speed) and a slow landing speed that make it a
very easy outlanding glider.

John Galloway


At 18:24 13 March 2015, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
I think Jules 970 is right on point. And I can not stress enough,
that if
y=
ou get this Nimbus2 you will do much less flying than if you get
one of
th=
e gliders mentioned below. If you are flying XC you want a glider
that is
=
comfortable and easy to handle, what if you are low and have to
bend
around=
a small thermal, you want a glider that is easy to fly, you will
build
mor=
e confidence, you will want to fly it more and friends will help you
assemb=
le the glider. If you get a machine like this you are more likely to
not
b=
e confident for many hours, it might scare you enough that you do
not
fly..=
.... Good luck and stay safe.

On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 9:15:04 AM UTC-7, Jules 970 wrote:
Hi Surge
=20
Having flown a Nimbus 2B and a good range of other types I
would not
recommend a Nimbus 2 / 2B to a low hours glider pilot unless he
had a lot
of other handling experience (for example as a fast jet or
aerobatic
pilot). The all flying tail is not very stable in pitch and the
airbrakes
are rather weak (there is a mod which will double paddle them
but even
th=
en
they are adequate rather than great).=20
=20
Like most gliders of this generation it will spin if provoked, but
the
behavior is dependent on the CofG position - with an aft CofG
they drop a
wing quite easily and are definitely not as docile as the more
modern
types.
=20
The Nimbus 2C is better in some respects (fixed tail and trailing
edge
brakes) but most open class gliders are not ideal for low-hours
pilots
(y=
ou
dont say your hours but I assume that is the case). The
exception IMHO is
the Open Cirrus which is relatively straightforward.
=20
Of course with a few hundred hours under your belt on other
types (such
a=
s
std cirrus or Janus) things would be different.
=20
I would recommend an LS4 if you can afford it, or ASW19/20 as
a slightly
cheaper option, or maybe a DG200/202 or DG101 or DG300.
Any of these is
good for 300-500km flights given reasonable conditions and will
be easier
to handle, thermal, and land (out or away).
=20
Best advice as always is talk to you CFI - assuming they have a
good
rang=
e
of experience and types in the book
=20
Of course this is only my opinion but hope it helps !
=20

On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 8:11:44 PM UTC-7, Surge
wrote:
A Nimbus 2 is on the market which I'm interested in as my
first glider
an=3D
d I'd like some feedback from those who've owned or flown
one.
=3D20
I do realize that a flapped, long winged glider is not the best
choice
fo=3D
r a low time pilot which is why I will keep the glider in a hangar
while
I
=3D
first build up some experience on Grob G102's. My motivation
for
purchas=
e
i=3D
s because I think the glider matches my checklist for the type
of flying
I'=3D
ve always wished to do and also because of the opportunity
presented
which
=3D
may not come around again. Due to the fact that gliders take
ages to
sel=
l
w=3D
here I live (slow market), I'd rather purchase something I want
to fly
for
=3D
the next 20 years than purchase an intermediate "first glider"
that I
battl=3D
e to sell later. There is enough G102 stock available to hire in
the
transi=3D
tion phase.
=3D20
My aim in soaring has always been to do medium distance
(300-500km),
rela=3D
xed, cross country flying (armchair ride) so with regards to
performance
an=3D
d bang-for-buck it ticks the boxes. I am not interested in
competition
flyi=3D
ng. I'd much rather cruise around at 160km/h with an L/D of
~40:1 than
blas=3D
t around at 200+ km/h trying to shave precious seconds off a
task.=3D20
I'd like to know more about the glider's vices or problem
areas I need
to=3D
be aware of.
=3D20
1. Stall/spin characteristics. How much warning does it give
before
stall=3D
ing and does it have any tendency to suddenly drop a wing and
spin or
ca=
n
i=3D
t be considered as one of the docile gliders in the stall/spin
category?
If=3D
it constantly wants to kill me (a pilot issue) I'd rather stay
with an
Ast=3D
ir and just limit my cross country range.
=3D20
2. Pitch sensitivity. The glider has an all flying tail (not a 2B
or
2=
C
m=3D
odel). How pitch sensitive is it once trimmed in cruise? Is it
twitchy/unst=3D
able and need constant attention or is it fairly stable and one
doesn't
hav=3D
e to constantly fight to keep attitude constant?
=3D20
3. Approach control. How effective are the airbrakes? Are
outlandings
=
a
c=3D
hallenge with the tail chute? Where I fly there are usually
plenty of
plowe=3D
d fields at least 300m long and fairly wide (apparently guarded
by
farmers
=3D
with shotguns).
=3D20
Areas I'm aware of:
- Pitch is sensitive which evidently makes tugging a bit
trickier.
- Long wings and cross winds don't play nicely together on
takeoff.
- Don't go full positive flap on takeoff as the wing may fly
before
th=
e
t=3D
ail! :-O
- Roll rate is not snappy and the glider is a bit under
ruddered which
ma=3D
kes entering thermals a bit more challenging than most 15m
ships.
- Long wings and mediocre airbrakes (compared to Astirs)
make out
landing=3D
s more challenging/dangerous.
- Heavy wings are not an issue as the glider will be hangared
and
flow=
n
c=3D
onservatively cross country. The odd retrieve shouldn't be a
reason to
not
=3D
fly such an awesome old lady.
- The glider comes with a decent trailer and accessories
before
someon=
e
b=3D
rings that up.
- All AD's including tail AD applied.

On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 12:45:04 PM UTC-7, John Galloway wrote:
It might be a good idea to find a copy of Dick Johnson's flight test of
the original Nimbus 2 published in Soaring magazine. Unfortunately
it is omitted from the web.archive.org list of Dick Johnson articles.
He describes getting into into a very bad situation with an
uncontrollable pitch up on an autotow launch. He advised "I do not
recommend that pilots with less than several hundred recent flying
hours fly this beautiful but complex machine, particularly from
ground tow".


SSA members can access the Johnson review of the Nimbus II in the April, 1976 issue through the Soaring Magazine Archive.

Like Bruce and a few others, I don't condemn the N2A.
In my opinion, initially flying it with a forward C/G is best.
With about 100 hours my first N2A flight, at around the aft limit, took a few "interesting" seconds to get used to. Since then, enjoyed flights in properly ballasted N2s.
Justin might know the one I flew in Queensland, VH-GAW "Alice in Wonderland".
Jim

Hi Jim, yep she is still here, I think it's for sale at the moment. There are some details here.

http://www.hart.wattle.id.au/alice/articles.html

To be honest I belive if you can fly a cirrus, asw15. Astir you can fly a N2. Yes it's big but the what height and learning time is for. Are we really heading for a generation of pilots who don't want to fly stuff based on old stories and poor recollection of history. When Dick wrote that article there was the asw17 and N2 they were two years old and way ahead of anything else. I wonder what he would think of the Dianna or Duckhawk.

I any case my N2 to fly is available if you want to pay the $200 Excess insurance fee, It's at Kingaroy, arguably on of the fastest clubs in the world with no real wave and all done on thermals, hire charges for my glider are in Australian mates rates currency. I have a spare room in Brisbane and can organise transport. The CFI is very friendly (me ).

Originally Posted by JS

Like Bruce and a few others, I don't condemn the N2A.
In my opinion, initially flying it with a forward C/G is best.
With about 100 hours my first N2A flight, at around the aft limit, took a few "interesting" seconds to get used to. Since then, enjoyed flights in properly ballasted N2s.
Justin might know the one I flew in Queensland, VH-GAW "Alice in Wonderland".
Jim

On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 11:11:44 PM UTC-4, Surge wrote:

My aim in soaring has always been to do medium distance (300-500km), relaxed, cross country flying (armchair ride) so with regards to performance and bang-for-buck it ticks the boxes. I am not interested in competition flying. I'd much rather cruise around at 160km/h with an L/D of ~40:1 than blast around at 200+ km/h trying to shave precious seconds off a task.

Something to consider... Long-winged gliders do present some challenges when it comes time to land off-field. It depends on where you live. The huge, flat fields of the US central plains are much more forgiving than the broken field flying we sometimes do in the Appalachian ridges. I am much more aware of narrow or rolling fields flying my 18M ASG-29 than I was flying the LS8 and LS4 that preceded it. Just another item to factor into your decision.

P3

How does the N2A (flying stab) handle winch launches and cable breaks during winching? Is the tail stalling an old wives tail or a real issue?