Spins

Why is it that a PPL is obtainable without basic spin recovery
demonstration? What about inverted recoveries?


In Australia, at least, no glider pilot can solo without demonstrating
spin entry and recovery. At the other extreme, ultralight (the
Australian term, think LSA) pilots CANNOT spin during training,
because no ultralight is legally allowed to spin.

Sadly we had a fatality here a while back, when a fellow in an
ultralight registered motorglider spun in. I don't think he had
received any spin training because he was an 'ultralight' pilot.

Al

On 2008-01-17, wrote:
I wonder: how many pilots on this board had a spin demonstrated to
them during PPL training? How many got to recover from a spin during
PPL training? After getting the PPL?

I had one demonstrated to me. I don't recall if I did the recovery; what I
do recall is getting airsick and having to clean up the 172. Haven't done
one since.

My instructor firmly believed that every pilot should have at least seen one
during primary training. I can't disagree, although I'm not sure I learned
much from it.

My instructor also believed in doing one true dead-stick landing during
primary training...damn, a Warrior sure gets quiet when you pull the pixture
to idle cutoff in flight. We were at pattern altitude abeam the numbers on
downwind when he did that, and there was no trouble at all making the runway
(he also taught nice, tight patterns). Whatever your feelings about
instructors who do that, I am at least comfortable that, having done so, I
wouldn't be quite so scared if it were to happen again.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!)
Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390

Jay Maynard wrote:
On 2008-01-17, wrote:
I wonder: how many pilots on this board had a spin demonstrated to
them during PPL training? How many got to recover from a spin during
PPL training? After getting the PPL?

I had one demonstrated to me. I don't recall if I did the recovery; what I
do recall is getting airsick and having to clean up the 172. Haven't done
one since.

Most likely a spiral. It's hard to get a 172 to spin and keep spinning
and I've it's not the nausea ride that a prolonged rotation of a spiral
(or even steep turns) can be.

My rather whacko instructor (and roommate) had me doing spins in a 152
on my second lesson, but I'm not sure I'd recommend that to the general
population. We were both young at the time.

On Jan 17, 3:23 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

I agree, but to be fair, a lot of the old guys didn't know what they were
talking about either. I've met a few.
But it's true the direction has changed and not alwasys for the better.
If I hear one more guy say "but that's how the pros do it"....

Bertie

Very true -- just because you "been there" doesn't mean you learned
much.

Regarding spins -- There's some dangerous self-delusion going on if
you think your 50 spins in a Citabria will keep you alive when you
spin a loaded C210/PA-28/A36/S35, etc on base to final.

Few pilots fly airplanes loaded in the utility category (if the
airplane is so certified at all). Many are flown in the Normal
category, with an aft (though still within limits) CG.

Spin a normal category, aft-loaded airplane not certified for spins
and all the PARE in the world won't assure your survival.

Dan

I was trained (in Canada) to do spins during PPL training, recovery
was required within a certain alt loss.

Incipient, 1/2 turn, fully developed, power on, power off..

I guess I have spun 152s and 172s maybe 100 times in the past 25
years... actually its fun....

Side benefit is that one does learn what the "danger zone feels like"
just before the spin. Hopefully to recognise it in time.. - although
this probaly varies a lot between different aircraft.

Dave




On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:48:17 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

IIRC, Canada still requires spin training, but the US and Canadian accident rate
due to spins is about the same. *They might have fewer accidental spins, but the
accidents during training make up for it, like Bertie says.

Are there some numbers on this?

It just seems like if doing spins really resulted in higher death
rates then it would definitely show up in aerobatic schools of the
type Rich Stowall runs and the independant aerobatic instructors like
my primary flight instructor was/is.

Those people have done uncountable numbers of spins.

All respect to Langewiesche, et al, but ... shouldn't people like
Stowell and other aerobatics types simply be dead?

I wonder: how many pilots on this board had a spin demonstrated to
them during PPL training? How many got to recover from a spin during
PPL training? After getting the PPL?

" wrote in
:

On Jan 17, 3:23 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

I agree, but to be fair, a lot of the old guys didn't know what they
were talking about either. I've met a few.
But it's true the direction has changed and not alwasys for the
better.
If I hear one more guy say "but that's how the pros do it"....

Bertie

Very true -- just because you "been there" doesn't mean you learned
much.

Regarding spins -- There's some dangerous self-delusion going on if
you think your 50 spins in a Citabria will keep you alive when you
spin a loaded C210/PA-28/A36/S35, etc on base to final.



Well, spin training isn't about that. It's about recognising the spin long
before it happens. It will do that if done properly.

Few pilots fly airplanes loaded in the utility category (if the
airplane is so certified at all). Many are flown in the Normal
category, with an aft (though still within limits) CG.

Spin a normal category, aft-loaded airplane not certified for spins
and all the PARE in the world won't assure your survival.


Well, you don't do that!

Bertie

Ron Natalie wrote in
m:

Jay Maynard wrote:
On 2008-01-17, wrote:
I wonder: how many pilots on this board had a spin demonstrated to
them during PPL training? How many got to recover from a spin during
PPL training? After getting the PPL?

I had one demonstrated to me. I don't recall if I did the recovery;
what I do recall is getting airsick and having to clean up the 172.
Haven't done one since.

Most likely a spiral. It's hard to get a 172 to spin and keep
spinning and I've it's not the nausea ride that a prolonged rotation
of a spiral (or even steep turns) can be.


Yes, I've never gotten one to do more than about a half a turn no matter
what we tried. Swept fin 150s will only do three turns for the most part
and 152s even less.

My rather whacko instructor (and roommate) had me doing spins in a 152
on my second lesson, but I'm not sure I'd recommend that to the
general population. We were both young at the time.


Baptism of fire, eh?

Bertie

On Jan 16, 7:40*pm, wrote:

Why is it that a PPL is obtainable without basic spin recovery
demonstration? What about inverted recoveries?


1) Because most training planes today are not certified for spins.
Unless you can round up an old 172 or Cherokee you're probably out of
luck. Today, most students don't want to flly planes that old so FBOs
don't tend to purchase them.
2) Because even if you found a plane so old that it was certified for
spins the FBO would likely prohibit it because they use the planes for
instrument training as well. FBOs don't have the old J-3's in the back
of the hanger that they use for private training, they want all their
planes to be useable for instrument training.

-Robert

On Jan 17, 7:00 am, " wrote:

Very true -- just because you "been there" doesn't mean you learned
much.
Regarding spins -- There's some dangerous self-delusion going on if
you think your 50 spins in a Citabria will keep you alive when you
spin a loaded C210/PA-28/A36/S35, etc on base to final.
Few pilots fly airplanes loaded in the utility category (if the
airplane is so certified at all). Many are flown in the Normal
category, with an aft (though still within limits) CG.
Spin a normal category, aft-loaded airplane not certified for spins
and all the PARE in the world won't assure your survival.

No, spinning a heavily-loaded, aft CG airplane at 400 feet
surely will kill you. But if you did spins in training, you know WHAT
they are, WHAT causes them, that you SHOULD avoid them and HOW to
avoid them. A pilot who has never spun has only the theory in his
head, and is like the trike pilot who has never flown a taildragger:
he really doesn't know how necessary those feet are.
In Canada the PPL student has to see a spin demonstrated.
The CPL student must be able to do them. The instructor must be able
to teach them. We don't kill people doing spins. Anything up to one
turn is considered an incipient spin. A wing drop is just a wing drop.
Our Citabrias get spun a lot. The 172 is a real pain to spin.
The gyros do take a beating, but as the Director of
Maintenance (and a flight instructor) for a flight college I can tell
you that a heated hangar goes much farther toward gyro life than not
doing spins. Before we had heated storage the gyros went out once or
twice every winter. The tiny ball bearings in these things have a very
light grease that solidifies in the cold and gets squeezed out of the
way so the bearings run dry and die real quick, spins or no spins.

Dan

wrote:
On Jan 17, 3:23 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

I agree, but to be fair, a lot of the old guys didn't know what they were
talking about either. I've met a few.
But it's true the direction has changed and not alwasys for the better.
If I hear one more guy say "but that's how the pros do it"....

Bertie

Very true -- just because you "been there" doesn't mean you learned
much.

Regarding spins -- There's some dangerous self-delusion going on if
you think your 50 spins in a Citabria will keep you alive when you
spin a loaded C210/PA-28/A36/S35, etc on base to final.

Few pilots fly airplanes loaded in the utility category (if the
airplane is so certified at all). Many are flown in the Normal
category, with an aft (though still within limits) CG.

Spin a normal category, aft-loaded airplane not certified for spins
and all the PARE in the world won't assure your survival.

Dan




If the instructor giving spin instruction was any good at all, the pilot
flying this "aft loaded" airplane would not be flying it out of aft cg
number one, and number two, wouldn't be placing that airplane in a
position where it could spin.
Spin avoidance rather than spin recovery is the main focus of spin
instruction. Your "50 spins in a Citabria" are there to make you
completely familiar with the left side of a flight envelope and what can
happen there.
There is MUCH more to a well run spin program than learning how to
recover from the spin.


--
Dudley Henriques