Is a motorglider a "powered aircraft"

Is a motorglider a "powered aircraft"? Does anyone have official words
to this effect?

I asked our regional FSDO this question and he felt that a
motorglider was not a "powered aircraft", but I have heard from others
that it is.

I ask for reasons of certifying as a tow pilot in a motorglider. FAR
61.69 says that "no person may act as pilot in command for towing a
glider unless that person: (1) holds at least a private pilot
certificate with a category rating for powered aircraft."

Of course, I need a Glider ticket to fly a motorglider, but can I
also tow in a motorglider with a Glider certificate (assuming other
conditions are met), or do I need a Pilot-SEL certificate earned in
powered airplane?


My understanding is that a glider is a powered aircraft but not an
"airplane". Can anyone guide me on this? Thanks.

Greg

My apologies. I meant to be more specific in request below. I know the
discussion about a motorglider being "powered aircraft" with regard to
14 CFR 91.205. I am asking whether a motorglider is a powered aircraft
with regard to pilot certification. Can a Private Pilot-Glider tow?

Greg

===============
Greg K. wrote:
Is a motorglider a "powered aircraft"? Does anyone have official
words
to this effect?

I asked our regional FSDO this question and he felt that a
motorglider was not a "powered aircraft", but I have heard from
others
that it is.

I ask for reasons of certifying as a tow pilot in a motorglider.
FAR
61.69 says that "no person may act as pilot in command for towing a
glider unless that person: (1) holds at least a private pilot
certificate with a category rating for powered aircraft."

Of course, I need a Glider ticket to fly a motorglider, but can I
also tow in a motorglider with a Glider certificate (assuming other
conditions are met), or do I need a Pilot-SEL certificate earned in
powered airplane?


My understanding is that a glider is a powered aircraft but not
an
"airplane". Can anyone guide me on this? Thanks.

Greg

Very interesting question and obvious that FAA did not consider towing
with motor gliders when this rule was drafted.

In my opinion, if your pilot certificate says "ratings - glider" then
you do not hold a category rating for powered aircraft. A self launch
endorsement is not a rating. If you were grandfathered, like me, you
wouldn't even have the endorsement. On the other hand if you have a
rating for single engine land you could be qualified to tow, but not to
fly the motor glider. To meet the letter of 61.69 you would need to
rated in gliders and SEL (or other powered aircraft).

The question does not seem to have been asked in the AFS FAQ ref:

http://www.faa.gov/AVR/AFS/AFS800/DOCS/pt61FAQ.doc

Try email to John Lynch for an interpretation (address is in the ref
above)


Andy


Greg K. wrote:
My apologies. I meant to be more specific in request below. I know
the
discussion about a motorglider being "powered aircraft" with regard
to
14 CFR 91.205. I am asking whether a motorglider is a powered
aircraft
with regard to pilot certification. Can a Private Pilot-Glider tow?

Greg

Try email to John Lynch for an interpretation (address is in the ref
above)

Andy
================================================== ======================

I would suggest a letter to your regional council. You will need more
horsepower than John Lynch to settle this question, especially the
towing portion. In your letter, include the relevant regulations and
how you interpret them and your question.

As to the "powered aircraft", my opinion is that a self-launch glider
(that is what it is called in the regulations) has a power-plant and
certainly is an aircraft by the definitions in 14CFR Part 1, but I am
not a regional council, just a CFI and examiner.

Terry Claussen

I would tend to agree with Andy on this one..

It would be interesting to get an official FAA ruling in writing.

BT

"Andy" wrote in message
ups.com...
Very interesting question and obvious that FAA did not consider towing
with motor gliders when this rule was drafted.

In my opinion, if your pilot certificate says "ratings - glider" then
you do not hold a category rating for powered aircraft. A self launch
endorsement is not a rating. If you were grandfathered, like me, you
wouldn't even have the endorsement. On the other hand if you have a
rating for single engine land you could be qualified to tow, but not to
fly the motor glider. To meet the letter of 61.69 you would need to
rated in gliders and SEL (or other powered aircraft).

The question does not seem to have been asked in the AFS FAQ ref:

http://www.faa.gov/AVR/AFS/AFS800/DOCS/pt61FAQ.doc

Try email to John Lynch for an interpretation (address is in the ref
above)


Andy


Greg K. wrote:
My apologies. I meant to be more specific in request below. I know
the
discussion about a motorglider being "powered aircraft" with regard
to
14 CFR 91.205. I am asking whether a motorglider is a powered
aircraft
with regard to pilot certification. Can a Private Pilot-Glider tow?

Greg

Terry,

Thanks. I will mail John Lynch. Apparently that a motorglider is a
"powered aircraft" for purposes of 91.205 (aircraft certification) is
best stated in the ACS-100 bulletin in 1993:

-----------------------
Date: 2/10/93

Initiated By: ACE-100

AC No: 21.17-2A

Change:

1=2E PURPOSE. This advisory circular (AC) provides information and
guidance
concerning acceptable

means, but not the only means, of showing compliance with =A7 21.17(b) of
part
21 of the Federal Aviation

Regulations (FAR) for type certification of gliders and powered
gliders.
Accordingly, this material is

neither mandatory nor regulatory in nature and does not constitute a
regulation. General guidance

relative to glider type certification is also provided.

It also includes the following:

b=2E Additional Criteria for Powered Gliders.

(1) Powered fixed-wing gliders may be type certificated under Section
21.17(b) if:

(i) The number of occupants does not exceed two;

(ii) Maximum weight does not exceed 850 kg (1874 pounds); and

(iii) The maximum weight to wing span squared (w/b2) does not exceed
3=2E0
kg/m2 (0.62

lb./ft.2).

NOTE: These criteria originated from JAR-22.

h=2E Section 91.205 of the FAR. Powered gliders are considered to be
powered=20
aircraft for the=20

purpose of complying with =A7 91.205.

Just some off the cuff remarks, as others have provided some reasonable
resposes...

Since a glider rating is needed to fly a motorglider, then even though
it is a powered aircraft, you're not rated. But is an airship
considered a powered aircraft? If so, then all you need is an
airship/glider rating with self launch endorsement.

Whee!

-Tom

Todd, I think we are all in agreement that a motor glider is a powered
aircraft. The area that needs to be interpreted is whether a pilot
with a glider rating (there is no FAA motor glider rating) has a rating
for a powered aircraft. If that pilot does, then do all glider pilots
have a rating for powered aircraft? If not, then is the authorization
by grandfathering or endorsement to be considered a rating. (I am
qualified to fly tail wheel airplanes but I don't have a tail wheel
rating because there isn't one.) I hope Greg will post the answer is he
ever gets one.

To answer 5Z - I don't think there is any doubt that an airship is a
powered aircraft so yes, a pilot with glider and an airship ratings
would meet the letter of 61.69.

Andy

I wonder what the insurance companies think.
In my experience, I've found their opinion of whether
a particular type of flight is covered to be far more
important
than anything the FAA comes up with.

If I had an accident, by far my biggest concern isn't
whether I'm legal, but whether I am insured.

To give you an idea of the impact of insurance,
a friend is selling a Lancair IVP (pressurized
piston driven 360hp mach .5 single) for
less than what a 20 year old A36 Bonanza
sells for. The difference: the experimental IVP is
almost totally uninsurable...

Look at Cessna 310 price/perfomance vs. insurability
and you come to the same conclusion.

At 17:00 12 May 2005, Andy wrote:
Todd, I think we are all in agreement that a motor
glider is a powered
aircraft. The area that needs to be interpreted is
whether a pilot
with a glider rating (there is no FAA motor glider
rating) has a rating
for a powered aircraft. If that pilot does, then do
all glider pilots
have a rating for powered aircraft? If not, then is
the authorization
by grandfathering or endorsement to be considered a
rating. (I am
qualified to fly tail wheel airplanes but I don't have
a tail wheel
rating because there isn't one.) I hope Greg will post
the answer is he
ever gets one.

To answer 5Z - I don't think there is any doubt that
an airship is a
powered aircraft so yes, a pilot with glider and an
airship ratings
would meet the letter of 61.69.

Andy


Mark J. Boyd

Very interesting question. I'm not sure of the answer,
but I do appreciate the post that showed the AC with
a definition of 'motorglider'. I've been looking for
that one since I started the jet sailplane project.
I have every intention of stretching the limits.
How about a 250 MPH twin jet motorglider with a 400
mile range? Can be flown on a glider license without
a medical.

BTW, I routinely tow behind a helicopter at airshows.
I endorsed the helicopter pilot's logbook for towing
after simulated tows in a C150/150. At that time I
had never even flown a helicopter. There is no aircraft
cat/class limitation on a tow endorsement, so he was
good to go in anything he was rated for.

Bob C.


At 18:00 12 May 2005, M B wrote:
I wonder what the insurance companies think.
In my experience, I've found their opinion of whether
a particular type of flight is covered to be far more
important
than anything the FAA comes up with.

If I had an accident, by far my biggest concern isn't
whether I'm legal, but whether I am insured.

To give you an idea of the impact of insurance,
a friend is selling a Lancair IVP (pressurized
piston driven 360hp mach .5 single) for
less than what a 20 year old A36 Bonanza
sells for. The difference: the experimental IVP is
almost totally uninsurable...

Look at Cessna 310 price/perfomance vs. insurability
and you come to the same conclusion.

At 17:00 12 May 2005, Andy wrote:
Todd, I think we are all in agreement that a motor
glider is a powered
aircraft. The area that needs to be interpreted is
whether a pilot
with a glider rating (there is no FAA motor glider
rating) has a rating
for a powered aircraft. If that pilot does, then do
all glider pilots
have a rating for powered aircraft? If not, then is
the authorization
by grandfathering or endorsement to be considered a
rating. (I am
qualified to fly tail wheel airplanes but I don't have
a tail wheel
rating because there isn't one.) I hope Greg will post
the answer is he
ever gets one.

To answer 5Z - I don't think there is any doubt that
an airship is a
powered aircraft so yes, a pilot with glider and an
airship ratings
would meet the letter of 61.69.

Andy


Mark J. Boyd