Boeing 777 Short Landing at Heathrow,UK

You have a great talent for twisting words...

JT





Herman wrote:

Running out of fuel 50 yards short of the runway?
I don't think so. No aircrew would ever operate that close to the edge and
even large jet-powered airliners can glide for considerable distances
without power. Remember the 747 whose engines failed after flying through a
cloud of volcanic ash and then became the worlds largest glider?
I think it is a simple (?) case of undershooting the runway.
The pilot will have some explaining to do and possibly his next job will be
sweeping the streets of London.

Regards,
Herman


"Grumpy AuContraire" schreef in bericht
...

This has all the symptoms of running out of fuel.

• Both engines fail
• No fire on impact
• Very similar to a B-707 incident a few years ago near JFK

JT




J.F. wrote:


Jan. 17 (Bloomberg) -- A British Airways Plc jumbo jet arriving from
China crashed on landing at London's Heathrow airport, injuring 19 people
and forcing the cancellation of more than 200 flights.

Flight BA038 from Beijing, a Boeing Co. 777 carrying 152 passengers and
crew, touched down at 12:42 p.m. local time today, airport owner BAA Ltd.
said in a statement. The cause of the accident is under investigation.

Television pictures showed the 777 at the edge of the runway apron with
the grass behind it torn up for several hundred yards where the aircraft
had scraped along. Escape chutes were deployed and fire trucks sprayed
the plane with foam. One wing and much of the landing gear appeared
damaged.

``It would be inappropriate for me to speculate as to the likely cause of
this incident,'' British Airways Chief Executive Officer Willie Walsh
said in a statement. ``We are very proud of the way our crew safely
evacuated all 136 passengers on board with only minor injuries.''

The Associated Press said hospitals reported receiving 19 people with
crash injuries.

Heathrow's southern runway was closed for almost two hours after the
accident, BAA said. U.K. Prime Minister Gordon Brown's plane was among
departures that were delayed, with the pilot informing those aboard that
a ``significant incident'' had occurred at the airport, Europe's busiest.

`Out of Our Window'

``We saw it out of our window,'' said Peter Morris, chief economist at
Ascend Worldwide, an aviation data provider and consulting company with
offices just outside the Heathrow airfield. ``There's no official report
but it appears that the aircraft undershot the runway -- it landed too
soon.''

The plane suddenly lost power as it approached the runway, CNN quoted the
pilot as saying.

Today's event appears to be the first major incident involving a Boeing
777, Morris said. Like most planes landing at Heathrow, it approached the
airport over the heavily populated suburbs of west London, western
Europe's biggest city.

The 777-200ER, registration G-YMMM, was built in 2001 and is one of 43 in
the British Airways fleet. It's powered by two Rolls-Royce Group Plc
Trent 895 engines and had accumulated 23,476 flying hours as of Dec. 31,
2006, according to data on the Web site of the U.K. Civil Aviation
Authority.

Maintenance Check

The plane's last maintenance check was in December and it was piloted by
an experienced captain who has been with British Airways for almost 20
years, said the company, whose shares closed up 1.4 percent today at
293.5 pence.

The incident will be investigated by the Air Accidents Investigation
Branch of the U.K. Department for Transport.

``All we can say at this point is, we look forward to helping with the
investigation as we are invited to participate,'' said Jim Proulx, a
Boeing spokesman in Seattle.

Heathrow is operating at 99 percent of its government- permitted flight
capacity. The tightly packed take-off and landing schedule means even
minor glitches at the airport can have a domino effect on its operations.

BAA, owned by Spanish builder Grupo Ferrovial SA, has been criticized by
politicians, airlines and business leaders for the standards of services
and facilities at Heathrow, which handles 67 million passengers a year in
buildings meant for 45 million.

The airport's southern runway was later reopened for take- offs only,
with the northern runway operating for arriving aircraft. As of 5:30
p.m., 222 out of 1,300 flights had been canceled, with 24 switched to
other airports.

Poor weather may have been a factor in the incident, which didn't appear
to be a premeditated emergency landing, said Robert Cullemore, a
consultant with Aviation Economics in London.

Bird Strike

Other aviation experts said the plane's engines may have sucked in a
flock of Canada geese, causing power to fail. The geese are known to
frequent the many reservoirs around Heathrow. The British Broadcasting
Corp. cited an airport worker it didn't identify as saying the plane had
lost power on its approach.

``From all sources, it would seem that something must have happened in
the minutes or seconds prior to touching down,'' Cullemore said.
``Windshear, a sudden burst of wind, is one possible culprit, as is the
possibility that the aircraft lost power to its crucial functions.''

BMI, the second-biggest operator at Heathrow, is flying ``as
near-a-normal schedule as possible'' following the incident, it said in a
statement today. Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd. said all of its services
were proceeding as planned.

`Good Spirits'

Passengers from the British Airways flight were taken to an employee
lounge to be cared for and were ``generally in good spirits'' CEO Walsh
said. The carrier will most likely have to write off the damaged aircraft
and may consequently face operational difficulties, Cullemore of Aviation
Economics said.

``BA's safety record is exemplary and the rapid evacuation of the
passengers without loss of life is a tribute to their safety
commitment,'' he said.

Prime Minister Brown, leading a U.K. trade delegation of 30 executives to
China and India, took off almost an hour late on a British Airways Boeing
747. Also on the aircraft was billionaire Richard Branson, who controls
Virgin Atlantic.

?????

"Grumpy AuContraire" schreef in bericht
news
You have a great talent for twisting words...

JT





Herman wrote:

Running out of fuel 50 yards short of the runway?
I don't think so. No aircrew would ever operate that close to the edge
and even large jet-powered airliners can glide for considerable distances
without power. Remember the 747 whose engines failed after flying through
a cloud of volcanic ash and then became the worlds largest glider?
I think it is a simple (?) case of undershooting the runway.
The pilot will have some explaining to do and possibly his next job will
be sweeping the streets of London.

Regards,
Herman


"Grumpy AuContraire" schreef in bericht
...

This has all the symptoms of running out of fuel.

• Both engines fail
• No fire on impact
• Very similar to a B-707 incident a few years ago near JFK

JT




J.F. wrote:


Jan. 17 (Bloomberg) -- A British Airways Plc jumbo jet arriving from
China crashed on landing at London's Heathrow airport, injuring 19
people and forcing the cancellation of more than 200 flights.

Flight BA038 from Beijing, a Boeing Co. 777 carrying 152 passengers and
crew, touched down at 12:42 p.m. local time today, airport owner BAA
Ltd. said in a statement. The cause of the accident is under
investigation.

Television pictures showed the 777 at the edge of the runway apron with
the grass behind it torn up for several hundred yards where the aircraft
had scraped along. Escape chutes were deployed and fire trucks sprayed
the plane with foam. One wing and much of the landing gear appeared
damaged.

``It would be inappropriate for me to speculate as to the likely cause
of this incident,'' British Airways Chief Executive Officer Willie Walsh
said in a statement. ``We are very proud of the way our crew safely
evacuated all 136 passengers on board with only minor injuries.''

The Associated Press said hospitals reported receiving 19 people with
crash injuries.

Heathrow's southern runway was closed for almost two hours after the
accident, BAA said. U.K. Prime Minister Gordon Brown's plane was among
departures that were delayed, with the pilot informing those aboard that
a ``significant incident'' had occurred at the airport, Europe's
busiest.

`Out of Our Window'

``We saw it out of our window,'' said Peter Morris, chief economist at
Ascend Worldwide, an aviation data provider and consulting company with
offices just outside the Heathrow airfield. ``There's no official report
but it appears that the aircraft undershot the runway -- it landed too
soon.''

The plane suddenly lost power as it approached the runway, CNN quoted
the pilot as saying.

Today's event appears to be the first major incident involving a Boeing
777, Morris said. Like most planes landing at Heathrow, it approached
the airport over the heavily populated suburbs of west London, western
Europe's biggest city.

The 777-200ER, registration G-YMMM, was built in 2001 and is one of 43
in the British Airways fleet. It's powered by two Rolls-Royce Group Plc
Trent 895 engines and had accumulated 23,476 flying hours as of Dec. 31,
2006, according to data on the Web site of the U.K. Civil Aviation
Authority.

Maintenance Check

The plane's last maintenance check was in December and it was piloted by
an experienced captain who has been with British Airways for almost 20
years, said the company, whose shares closed up 1.4 percent today at
293.5 pence.

The incident will be investigated by the Air Accidents Investigation
Branch of the U.K. Department for Transport.

``All we can say at this point is, we look forward to helping with the
investigation as we are invited to participate,'' said Jim Proulx, a
Boeing spokesman in Seattle.

Heathrow is operating at 99 percent of its government- permitted flight
capacity. The tightly packed take-off and landing schedule means even
minor glitches at the airport can have a domino effect on its
operations.

BAA, owned by Spanish builder Grupo Ferrovial SA, has been criticized by
politicians, airlines and business leaders for the standards of services
and facilities at Heathrow, which handles 67 million passengers a year
in buildings meant for 45 million.

The airport's southern runway was later reopened for take- offs only,
with the northern runway operating for arriving aircraft. As of 5:30
p.m., 222 out of 1,300 flights had been canceled, with 24 switched to
other airports.

Poor weather may have been a factor in the incident, which didn't appear
to be a premeditated emergency landing, said Robert Cullemore, a
consultant with Aviation Economics in London.

Bird Strike

Other aviation experts said the plane's engines may have sucked in a
flock of Canada geese, causing power to fail. The geese are known to
frequent the many reservoirs around Heathrow. The British Broadcasting
Corp. cited an airport worker it didn't identify as saying the plane had
lost power on its approach.

``From all sources, it would seem that something must have happened in
the minutes or seconds prior to touching down,'' Cullemore said.
``Windshear, a sudden burst of wind, is one possible culprit, as is the
possibility that the aircraft lost power to its crucial functions.''

BMI, the second-biggest operator at Heathrow, is flying ``as
near-a-normal schedule as possible'' following the incident, it said in
a statement today. Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd. said all of its services
were proceeding as planned.

`Good Spirits'

Passengers from the British Airways flight were taken to an employee
lounge to be cared for and were ``generally in good spirits'' CEO Walsh
said. The carrier will most likely have to write off the damaged
aircraft and may consequently face operational difficulties, Cullemore
of Aviation Economics said.

``BA's safety record is exemplary and the rapid evacuation of the
passengers without loss of life is a tribute to their safety
commitment,'' he said.

Prime Minister Brown, leading a U.K. trade delegation of 30 executives
to China and India, took off almost an hour late on a British Airways
Boeing 747. Also on the aircraft was billionaire Richard Branson, who
controls Virgin Atlantic.

J.F. a écrit :
Jan. 17 (Bloomberg) -- A British Airways Plc jumbo jet arriving from China
crashed on landing at London's Heathrow airport, injuring 19 people and
forcing the cancellation of more than 200 flights.

Flight BA038 from Beijing, a Boeing Co. 777 carrying 152 passengers and
crew, touched down at 12:42 p.m. local time today, airport owner BAA Ltd.
said in a statement. The cause of the accident is under investigation.

Television pictures showed the 777 at the edge of the runway apron with the
grass behind it torn up for several hundred yards where the aircraft had
scraped along. Escape chutes were deployed and fire trucks sprayed the plane
with foam. One wing and much of the landing gear appeared damaged.

``It would be inappropriate for me to speculate as to the likely cause of
this incident,'' British Airways Chief Executive Officer Willie Walsh said
in a statement. ``We are very proud of the way our crew safely evacuated all
136 passengers on board with only minor injuries.''

The Associated Press said hospitals reported receiving 19 people with crash
injuries.

Heathrow's southern runway was closed for almost two hours after the
accident, BAA said. U.K. Prime Minister Gordon Brown's plane was among
departures that were delayed, with the pilot informing those aboard that a
``significant incident'' had occurred at the airport, Europe's busiest.

`Out of Our Window'

``We saw it out of our window,'' said Peter Morris, chief economist at
Ascend Worldwide, an aviation data provider and consulting company with
offices just outside the Heathrow airfield. ``There's no official report but
it appears that the aircraft undershot the runway -- it landed too soon.''

The plane suddenly lost power as it approached the runway, CNN quoted the
pilot as saying.

Today's event appears to be the first major incident involving a Boeing 777,
Morris said. Like most planes landing at Heathrow, it approached the airport
over the heavily populated suburbs of west London, western Europe's biggest
city.

The 777-200ER, registration G-YMMM, was built in 2001 and is one of 43 in
the British Airways fleet. It's powered by two Rolls-Royce Group Plc Trent
895 engines and had accumulated 23,476 flying hours as of Dec. 31, 2006,
according to data on the Web site of the U.K. Civil Aviation Authority.

Maintenance Check

The plane's last maintenance check was in December and it was piloted by an
experienced captain who has been with British Airways for almost 20 years,
said the company, whose shares closed up 1.4 percent today at 293.5 pence.

The incident will be investigated by the Air Accidents Investigation Branch
of the U.K. Department for Transport.

``All we can say at this point is, we look forward to helping with the
investigation as we are invited to participate,'' said Jim Proulx, a Boeing
spokesman in Seattle.

Heathrow is operating at 99 percent of its government- permitted flight
capacity. The tightly packed take-off and landing schedule means even minor
glitches at the airport can have a domino effect on its operations.

BAA, owned by Spanish builder Grupo Ferrovial SA, has been criticized by
politicians, airlines and business leaders for the standards of services and
facilities at Heathrow, which handles 67 million passengers a year in
buildings meant for 45 million.

The airport's southern runway was later reopened for take- offs only, with
the northern runway operating for arriving aircraft. As of 5:30 p.m., 222
out of 1,300 flights had been canceled, with 24 switched to other airports.

Poor weather may have been a factor in the incident, which didn't appear to
be a premeditated emergency landing, said Robert Cullemore, a consultant
with Aviation Economics in London.

Bird Strike

Other aviation experts said the plane's engines may have sucked in a flock
of Canada geese, causing power to fail. The geese are known to frequent the
many reservoirs around Heathrow. The British Broadcasting Corp. cited an
airport worker it didn't identify as saying the plane had lost power on its
approach.

``From all sources, it would seem that something must have happened in the
minutes or seconds prior to touching down,'' Cullemore said. ``Windshear, a
sudden burst of wind, is one possible culprit, as is the possibility that
the aircraft lost power to its crucial functions.''

BMI, the second-biggest operator at Heathrow, is flying ``as near-a-normal
schedule as possible'' following the incident, it said in a statement today.
Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd. said all of its services were proceeding as
planned.

`Good Spirits'

Passengers from the British Airways flight were taken to an employee lounge
to be cared for and were ``generally in good spirits'' CEO Walsh said. The
carrier will most likely have to write off the damaged aircraft and may
consequently face operational difficulties, Cullemore of Aviation Economics
said.

``BA's safety record is exemplary and the rapid evacuation of the passengers
without loss of life is a tribute to their safety commitment,'' he said.

Prime Minister Brown, leading a U.K. trade delegation of 30 executives to
China and India, took off almost an hour late on a British Airways Boeing
747. Also on the aircraft was billionaire Richard Branson, who controls
Virgin Atlantic.



It is not a short landing. It is a banal crash. The plane crashed at
300m of the runway because of an anomaly on the engines.

Phyl's

"Grumpy AuContraire" wrote in message
...


Al G wrote:

"Grumpy AuContraire" wrote in message
...

This has all the symptoms of running out of fuel.

• Both engines fail
• No fire on impact
• Very similar to a B-707 incident a few years ago near JFK

JT


http://news.bbc.co.uk:80/2/hi/uk_new...on/7196962.stm

The report noted that: "A significant amount of fuel leaked from the
aircraft but there was no fire."



Al G




"Significant" is kind of an ambiguous term. Surely, some fuel would
remain but maybe not enough for a "draw."

OTOH, this is speculation by a casual individual, (me), who has no
official info but just opines based on seat of pants experience...

JT

Indeed. When an aircraft with fully redundant systems loses both
engines,
the first place to look are the things both engines have in common, i.e.
fuel, pilot, and air. If that wasn't the problem, and apparently it wasn't,
you are left with what at first glance appears to be a simultaneous failure
in redundant systems. I'll leave it to the statisticians to describe this
likelihood.

Al G