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#1
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Attitude indicators
A typical AI display is "inside out", ie the view is from inside the plane
looking out. Some (Russian) aircraft use the reverse display, ie a fixed horizon and a moving airplane graphic. Does anyone know of work done to measure the human factors benefits / penalties of these two approaches? BTW a turn coordinator is "outside-in", yet located next to the AI. Is this smart? R Kyle |
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"R&A Kyle" wrote in message
... A typical AI display is "inside out", ie the view is from inside the plane looking out. Some (Russian) aircraft use the reverse display, ie a fixed horizon and a moving airplane graphic. Does anyone know of work done to measure the human factors benefits / penalties of these two approaches? Roscoe put the case for a change in: http://www.evergreenairlines.com/saf...t/flt0007.html I'm not convinced about the thoroughness of the argument. He cites the Stonecipher experiment as follows: "An experiment at the University of Illinois showed that of 20 private pilots without instrument flight training who were suddenly deprived of outside visual reference, all lost directional control in an average of three minutes. In trying to maintain altitude, they only tightened their diving turns. Making such bank-control reversals while using a conventional attitude indicator is primarily a general aviation problem." I've posted on rec.aviation before about misconceptions of the Stonecipher experiment. There was *no* AI available to the subjects in the experiment. Julian Scarfe |
#3
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"R&A Kyle" wrote
A typical AI display is "inside out", ie the view is from inside the plane looking out. Some (Russian) aircraft use the reverse display, ie a fixed horizon and a moving airplane graphic. And then there are some Russian aircraft (YAK-52) that came from The Ukraine with an "inside out" display, but one that moves in the opposite direction vertically than we find in most normal AIs. The "sky" is on the bottom half and the "ground" is on the upper half of the sphere. This arrangement (fully gimbled??) had the advantage of not tumbling when doing aerobatics. Bob Moore |
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The "sky" is on the bottom half and the "ground" is on the upper half of the sphere. This arrangement (fully gimbled??) had the advantage of not tumbling when doing aerobatics. And how is this advantage conferred by the paint job? Jose -- (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address) |
#5
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Interesting point. I do remember when I first started flying I thought the
AI should work like the turn coordinator. It seemed more natural for me to think of how the plane was doing relative to the horizon rather than how the horizon was doing relative to the plane. It likely varies from one person to the next, but I think I would have been happy had the AI been built, as you say, "outside-in". "R&A Kyle" wrote in message ... A typical AI display is "inside out", ie the view is from inside the plane looking out. Some (Russian) aircraft use the reverse display, ie a fixed horizon and a moving airplane graphic. Does anyone know of work done to measure the human factors benefits / penalties of these two approaches? BTW a turn coordinator is "outside-in", yet located next to the AI. Is this smart? R Kyle |
#6
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"JimC" wrote in
: Interesting point. I do remember when I first started flying I thought the AI should work like the turn coordinator. It seemed more natural for me to think of how the plane was doing relative to the horizon rather than how the horizon was doing relative to the plane. It likely varies from one person to the next, but I think I would have been happy had the AI been built, as you say, "outside-in". I'm with you. For some reason I have to FORCE myself to correctly interpret the standard AI. It has *always* seemed backwards to me. Logically, I don't know why. I am "fixed" in the plane and seeing the background of the AI as a virtual "outside the window horizon" should be perfectly natural... but for me it just doesn't work well. [And yes, I fly a lot of hard IFR. G] ----------------------------------------------- James M. Knox TriSoft ph 512-385-0316 1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331 Austin, Tx 78721 ----------------------------------------------- |
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On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 15:18:46 -0600, "James M. Knox"
wrote: "JimC" wrote in : Interesting point. I do remember when I first started flying I thought the AI should work like the turn coordinator. It seemed more natural for me to think of how the plane was doing relative to the horizon rather than how the horizon was doing relative to the plane. It likely varies from one person to the next, but I think I would have been happy had the AI been built, as you say, "outside-in". I'm with you. For some reason I have to FORCE myself to correctly interpret the standard AI. It has *always* seemed backwards to me. Logically, I don't know why. I am "fixed" in the plane and seeing the background of the AI as a virtual "outside the window horizon" should be perfectly natural... but for me it just doesn't work well. [And yes, I fly a lot of hard IFR. G] Hey! Do I have a deal for you:-)) I have one of the outside in AIs setting on the work bench. Fully operational, but old. Looks to be in good shape. I took it out of the Debonair early on. The photos aren't the best, but they show the difference. http://www.rogerhalstead.com/gauges.htm Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?) www.rogerhalstead.com Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers ----------------------------------------------- James M. Knox TriSoft ph 512-385-0316 1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331 Austin, Tx 78721 ----------------------------------------------- |
#8
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Thanks, Roger. Just looking at the old AI seem more "right" to me than the
current ones. I wonder if there was human perception factors research done on the AI's to determine which depiction is most intuitive? JimC "Roger Halstead" wrote in message ... On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 15:18:46 -0600, "James M. Knox" wrote: "JimC" wrote in : Interesting point. I do remember when I first started flying I thought the AI should work like the turn coordinator. It seemed more natural for me to think of how the plane was doing relative to the horizon rather than how the horizon was doing relative to the plane. It likely varies from one person to the next, but I think I would have been happy had the AI been built, as you say, "outside-in". I'm with you. For some reason I have to FORCE myself to correctly interpret the standard AI. It has *always* seemed backwards to me. Logically, I don't know why. I am "fixed" in the plane and seeing the background of the AI as a virtual "outside the window horizon" should be perfectly natural... but for me it just doesn't work well. [And yes, I fly a lot of hard IFR. G] Hey! Do I have a deal for you:-)) I have one of the outside in AIs setting on the work bench. Fully operational, but old. Looks to be in good shape. I took it out of the Debonair early on. The photos aren't the best, but they show the difference. http://www.rogerhalstead.com/gauges.htm Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?) www.rogerhalstead.com Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers ----------------------------------------------- James M. Knox TriSoft ph 512-385-0316 1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331 Austin, Tx 78721 ----------------------------------------------- |
#9
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Roger Halstead writes:
The photos aren't the best, but they show the difference. http://www.rogerhalstead.com/gauges.htm Roger, The text on the web page says they show a "nose up attitude and slight bank to the left". Surely you mean a "slight bank to the right"? If it really is a slight bank to the left, I'm not surprised that there were accidents changing to and from these gauges. I personally think that there is no "right" answer for the inside/outside perception thing, but that it's like track up/north up on maps. I find north up more intuitive, but I also find the inside-out AI more intuitive than the outside-in turn coordinator. a. |
#10
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On 09 Dec 2003 23:39:51 -0800, Angus Duggan
wrote: Roger Halstead writes: The photos aren't the best, but they show the difference. http://www.rogerhalstead.com/gauges.htm Roger, The text on the web page says they show a "nose up attitude and slight bank to the left". Surely you mean a "slight bank to the right"? If it really is a slight bank to the left, I'm not surprised that there were accidents changing to and from these gauges. I personally think that there is no "right" answer for the inside/outside perception thing, but that it's like track up/north up on maps. I find north up more intuitive, but I also find the inside-out AI more intuitive than the outside-in turn coordinator. Oops...I replaced the photos last night...bout 2:00 AM or so and neither compared the position of the indicator with the old photos, or bothered to read the text. sheesh That's what I get for staying up so late. Hmmm gotta go fix a page. Thanks for bringing that up. It was right for the previous photos, but the photos weren't real sharp. (lots of reflections) Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?) www.rogerhalstead.com Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers a. |
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