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Kawa rough landing?



 
 
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  #61  
Old September 18th 19, 03:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Nadler
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Default Kawa rough landing?

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 9:07:32 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
...is many motorgliders do not "plummet" or become less controllable
because the mast is up


And, many DO plummet, with reduced control authority.
It is highly dependent on what kind of glider!
Don't assume...
  #62  
Old September 18th 19, 05:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Default Kawa rough landing?

Don't begin a restart until you are within a mast-up
gliding distance of a good landing place - just in case it doesn't retract after a
failed start. Good advice. I have owned an ASW24E, ASH26E, Nimbus 4T ... It was explained to my during my motor glider glider sign-off. Never ever extend and attempt a start unless you are within gliding distance of a landing place. "To do so otherwise can make you look like a real asshole." I have had a land out where I got to the landing area too low for safe start.. The engine is a convienience that might work, not a death sentence, treat it as such.
  #63  
Old September 18th 19, 09:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Kawa rough landing?

In Kawa's case it looks like the prop was feathered back so he had much less drag than some of us have to deal with but regardless, I agree with others, starting a retractable propulsion system over some unknown landing location can lead to anything from minor scratches to broken glider and injured pilot. NTSB accident query here in the States lists several such cases where the engine did not work. In some cases it appears the pilot became distracted by the engine failure and either crashed into trees or cartwheeled the aircraft. So the other important thing here is to fly the airplane ..and not a bad thing to say out loud.
  #64  
Old September 18th 19, 11:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Default Kawa rough landing?

Dave Nadler wrote on 9/18/2019 7:43 AM:
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 9:07:32 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
...is many motorgliders do not "plummet" or become less controllable
because the mast is up


And, many DO plummet, with reduced control authority.
It is highly dependent on what kind of glider!
Don't assume...


That's why I recommend owners try at least one airport landing with the mast up,
and engine stopped, so they know what to expect if it happens to them. The 26E,
with the gear out and mast up, reminds me of landing a Blanik.

I've never had anyone flying the usual PIK, DG, ASH, and Ventus self-launchers
mention plummeting or reduced control authority to me, but I'm sure there must be
some like that. What gliders have this plummet/control authority problem, and how
bad is the plummet (same as half spoiler, full spoiler, etc), and reduction in
control?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf
,
  #65  
Old September 18th 19, 11:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom Kelley #711
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Default Kawa rough landing?

On Saturday, August 31, 2019 at 1:31:32 PM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Not sure how accurate FB translate is, but it appear as if Mr. Kawa had some sort of incident with an electric motor not working and a rough uphill landing. Gas, electric or jet be careful guys!


Kawa's translated words on FB today.

"Unfortunately, the mountain landing in pavullo would have me at least three months. Initially Invisible, but ultimately thanks to ortho in bygone accompanied spine fracture is an important thing.
Fortunately, I can tell you about it and share my observations and warn others."

He then goes on and shares his thoughts. The good news is he will recover in a short time. Some haven't been as fortunate.

Best. Tom #711.
  #66  
Old September 19th 19, 01:33 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Default Kawa rough landing?

On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 6:59:59 PM UTC-7, wrote:
"The only solution is prevention..." this is the same philosophy the faa has used in eliminating spin demonstration from private licensing and imop has led to a marked degredation in pilot awareness and skill., The very fact that a pilot becomes disoriented in the early stages of a spin or becomes uncomfortable when pitched into a steep bank is the very reason one needs to experience it again and again at altitude. The very act of physically experiencing the sensations both real and percieved during spin approach and entry become THE essential tool in survival.

As for outlandings, multiple experiences create a memory resevoir of knowledge in making very fast decisions and corrections which turn what could be a glider damaging landing into one that just raised the pucker factor a little bit.
Its the very fact that we rarely experience spin and rarely experience outlandings and can't handle them when they are thrust on us that is a large factor in the many fatal accidents we see today.


My comment clearly referred to spins in the pattern, not spin recovery at altitude, which still must be taught and practiced. A friend of mine killed himself when he spun in while faced with his first off-airport landing. He had recently completed all of the required glider training, which included spin recovery. But when you well under 1,000 ft AGL the prospects of a successful recovery are dim, at best. It is FAR BETTER to fly coordinated while in the pattern, with an appropriate speed margin, than to try to recover from an unusual attitude at very low altitude. Surely you must agree with this.

Tom
  #67  
Old September 19th 19, 01:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Default Kawa rough landing?

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 7:43:22 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 9:07:32 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
...is many motorgliders do not "plummet" or become less controllable
because the mast is up


And, many DO plummet, with reduced control authority.
It is highly dependent on what kind of glider!
Don't assume...


Which gliders are you talking about, or is it just a general smear against motorgliders? I have flown three different MGs (DG400, ASH26e and ASH31Mi) and none of them "plummet" or become less controllable with the mast up. The DG400 had a barely noticeable slower roll rate because the engine is on the mast, increasing its moment of inertia slightly. Note that we fly in this configuration routinely because the engine must be shut down on every flight in order to retract the prop.

Tom
  #68  
Old September 19th 19, 05:03 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
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Default Kawa rough landing?

Maybe this qualifies as prevention rather than recovery but I practice spins all the time - particularly spin entries (all at altitude of course). If you know how your glider behaves when it departs, can recognize a departure quickly and act promptly I've found it's possible to recover in 1/4 turn or so. Obviously that can vary by glider type and configuration. Even 1/4 turn is too much altitude loss at 150' AGL but maybe not at 350'. A surprise departure is likely to take longer to recognize and respond to than practice but longer still without any practice.

In any case I'd rather have some practice at it than not.

Similarly, I think landing where you are rapidly bleeding energy such as on an uphill field is a good skill and you can work your way up to a reasonable simulation by landing on the flat with increasing deployment of flaps and spoilers - all the way up to full if you're comfortable. Kawa's description of his landing seemed less about obstacles than rapid bleeding of speed before and following a bounce. Hitting a hidden obstacle truly is a "Fate is the Hunter" moment and an inherent hazard of committing to field landings if they aren't cultivated. I've only landed on a steep uphill once and it definitely is something that you could do better with practice.

Here again, I'd rather have some practice at it than not. Every landing is an opportunity to practice something before you have to do it under pressure.

Andy Blackburn
9B


On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 7:45:52 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

It does absolutely no good to practice something you will never use, which is a spin recovery from low altitude. The only solution is prevention - if a particular mistake is going to kill you, you can't do it. Most low altitude spins are due to uncoordinated flight - mostly misuse of the rudder because the pilot fears the visual image he gets by a steep bank.

No amount of landout practice is going to prepare you to landing in a field with unseen obstacles, which is what apparently happened to Kawa. If you push into an area with poor landing options you should not be surprised when things turn out badly.

Tom

  #69  
Old September 19th 19, 06:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,439
Default Kawa rough landing?

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 9:03:08 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
Maybe this qualifies as prevention rather than recovery but I practice spins all the time - particularly spin entries (all at altitude of course). If you know how your glider behaves when it departs, can recognize a departure quickly and act promptly I've found it's possible to recover in 1/4 turn or so. Obviously that can vary by glider type and configuration. Even 1/4 turn is too much altitude loss at 150' AGL but maybe not at 350'. A surprise departure is likely to take longer to recognize and respond to than practice but longer still without any practice.

In any case I'd rather have some practice at it than not.

Similarly, I think landing where you are rapidly bleeding energy such as on an uphill field is a good skill and you can work your way up to a reasonable simulation by landing on the flat with increasing deployment of flaps and spoilers - all the way up to full if you're comfortable. Kawa's description of his landing seemed less about obstacles than rapid bleeding of speed before and following a bounce. Hitting a hidden obstacle truly is a "Fate is the Hunter" moment and an inherent hazard of committing to field landings if they aren't cultivated. I've only landed on a steep uphill once and it definitely is something that you could do better with practice.

Here again, I'd rather have some practice at it than not. Every landing is an opportunity to practice something before you have to do it under pressure.

Andy Blackburn
9B


On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 7:45:52 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

It does absolutely no good to practice something you will never use, which is a spin recovery from low altitude. The only solution is prevention - if a particular mistake is going to kill you, you can't do it. Most low altitude spins are due to uncoordinated flight - mostly misuse of the rudder because the pilot fears the visual image he gets by a steep bank.

No amount of landout practice is going to prepare you to landing in a field with unseen obstacles, which is what apparently happened to Kawa. If you push into an area with poor landing options you should not be surprised when things turn out badly.

Tom


Andy,

When you are down low (in the pattern) practice COORDINATED flight - that is what will save your ass, not a low-altitude spin recovery. This is just plain, simple common sense. Pilots, lots of them, who don't do this are getting killed, this is fact. Can you produce a SINGLE pilot who has done such a low altitude save?

Tom


Tom
  #70  
Old September 19th 19, 11:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Kawa rough landing?

Tom you just dont get it. NASA, and the military both learned DECADES ago that their pilots need to be exposed to as many and as real as can be safely created, the exact sensations of an event.

Why? To give the pilot the experience of that event. Why? To sensitise the pilot to what that event will be like, and to help create the proper response, and to get that proper response instantaneously.

Yes, a guy entering a spin at 100ft agl is in **** creek, but as Andy says, at 350ft, he has a chance of survival IF he instantaneously acts and acts correctly. Not to mention inadvertently entering a spin in a gaggle and endangering others.

Secondly, its the instantaneous RECOGNITION of whats happening and intantaneous preemptive corrective action that saves a guy, NOT the "suppossed" "coordinated flight". THAT IS THE DIRTY JOKE THATS BEEN KiLLING GUYS FOR YEARS ! How many guys over the years have flown COORDINATED right into a stall/spin? ! ! ! I dare say most guys entering a spin don't realise their entering one till its already way late. Their first response is not..."spin spin stick forward!". No, their first and wrong response is ...."oh **** ...whats that?....." One can also crab or slip all the way thru a pattern and NEVER be in any danger of a spin. Jeeesus 2G you ever heard of a slip dude? We teach this **** and many of us depend on it daily. Guys like you would call a slip an "uncoordinated" manouver, "ohh **** the yaw string is way over!!!" This is the crap that many times gets subconciously passed on to our students who don't delve into the intricacies like us who are flight fanatics do. They falsely concentrate in the string and not the energy. You just inadvertantly "instructed" your student into a fatality!

It's situational awareness of energy management and angle of attack that matters, not the continual bull**** of so called coordinated flight.

Should we teach and practice proper coordinated flight? Of course. But we need to go and practice way way beyond that mantra and safely expose ourselves and our students to situational awareness of whats going, how to intantly recognise it and not be afraid of what their bird is doing, and how it reacts.

Like Andy and others have stated, safe actual practice and simulation of each possible flight situation is what is needed. With the rash of fatal accidents this year I think this fact needs to be pressed hard. Guys get high performance birds and NEVER trully explore their idiocyncracies before venturing off, putting their trust in technology (L/D and engines) and forget the "pilotage" part. Its the pilotage that keeps us alive!

 




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