Cost of ownership question

I chose a tail dragging Maule:
- choosing a 4 seater over a 2 seater was the best decision. 95% of the
time, it is 2 of us flying for a 1 to 5 day trip of aprox 250miles
roundtrip. A 2 placer is good for 1 person traveling. 2 people require
a 4 placer.
- Simple has paid off in reasonably predictable and moderate
maintenance; no CS prop, 180 4 cyl, relatively new
- Hangaring; I would not be willing to own something that sat out. Not
after being in a hangar.
- I love the tailwheel - keeps it interesting and different. Makes me
feel good. No practical value whatsoever.
- Wish it was faster. But having flown only 60 hours this year vs 125
to 150 the past 5 - I appreciate the simplicity and low maintenance.

I'd suggest some more exploring of clubs or partnerships

Slip'er wrote:
All great feedback so far. Keep it coming. I have made a few posts about
my efforts to select a plane. I am definitely caught in analysis paralysis.
I am also caught up with fear of selling my stock when it is doing so well.
I sold 500 shares to buy Christmas presents, two weeks after I sold them
those 500 shares were worth an additional $3500. I know this matters little
in the big scheme, you can't time the market...etc. But I'm still planning
to hold out until the fall and review my plans. Back to the plane.

I have only flown Citabrias and Decathalons with a little bit of Piper
PA-140 / PA-180 and a PT-23. I love the Citabria/Decathalon but am luke
warm at best about the Archer/172/etc. This bird will be parked outside,
most likely.

I started my quest thinking that a Champ or a Luscombe would fit the bill
for a first plane. But I get caught up in the "a 7ECA isn't that much more
and I get aerobatics and a bigger engine" which is true but, " a 150hp
Citabria isn't much more and I love the extra power" and "wow there are a
few nice examples of 8KCABs out there with a CS prop which is nice for
aerobatics and cruise, AND they don't cost much more..." So this is my main
dilema aside from purchase price, what is the difference in relative
maintenance from each of this family when comparing models of similar
condition. They typically don't have a lot of "extras" which is fine for
me. I am VFR only and don't plan to get instrument rated. (although I have
done and will continue to do a bit of training in my friends plane for a
margin of safety should I need it someday) If I buy into this group I'd
really like to get the metal spar and heavy lift struts.

Then more skitzophrenai...Should I really hold fast to taildraggers and
stick? Yes! I dream about bush flying all of the time and with my own
plane, 3-4 day weekend trips will actually be possible. (ever try to rent a
Citabria for a 3 day weekend? Good luck!) Wait, if I go for a faster
plane, I have access to more places. If I had say a Long-Eze or other
slippery plane in my price range I could really explore America.

Wait, I have kids. How often will I be able to realistically take off for
3-4 day trips. That probably isn't a good selection criteria. Best to
stick with day trips, again though speed is distance. Hmm, I love the
tandem seating but, my kids would really like to be up front and that would
be nice for them to learn more and enjoy each others company.

OMG, Look at that Great Lakes! No, wait, later! Wait until the kids are in
College. That cannot be a good idea right now.

So, I really think I'll be looking at a Citabria type aircraft. It seems
to be where my "comfort" zone is, probably because I soloed in a 7ECA and
most of my time is in Citabrias. The question is, should I buy the absolute
minimum aircraft that meets my "needs" or buy what I can afford for maximum
fun? One thing is true with Motorcycles, Cars, Boats, and Airplanes....you
can never have too much horse power.

Part of me says buy the minimum plane ie 7ECA for two reasons. Put the
minimum money at risk and use this first purchase as a learning experience.
This will increase reserves in case I really screw up and said reserves can
also hide some of the real expense from my wife who supports me in this but
is also an accountant...and I hear about my excessive hobbies. But if say a
150 HP Citabria is about the same to maintain...why not spend a little extra
money?

When I really think about it, this wouldn't be such a difficult decision if
I were single. The real pain I feel is that buying a plane feels so
selfish! This is a huge, expensive hobby for ME. Yes, my kids will enjoy
it but I doubt my wife will fly with me until the kids are out of the house.
My kids have flown with me and enjoy it but truth be told...they'd rather
have a boat (my wife would too). Which clearly means...this is for me. But
darn it, I have wanted this all of my life. They just "want" a boat because
I brought it up one day when I took them sailing on a friends 28 ft
sailboat.

Time for my medication...

In article 1104417758.851483@sj-nntpcache-3, Dave Butler wrote:
Stealth Pilot wrote:

At my airport, at the end of 10 years I'd have spent an extra $27000, the
difference between hangaring and an outside tie-down. I think I could do a
pretty nice restoration (if it needed it, which it won't) for $27000.

In ten years the new paintjob you'll need will be half that. You'll
manage to spend some of the rest on higher insurance premiums, new
plexiglass from UV crazing, extra sets of tires, maintenance or loss of
value due to corrosion, ... Meanwhile you put up with the inconvenience
of operating from a tiedown, like washing the plane more often, messing
with tiedowns, covers (oh, I hate covers), ice and snow, mud, etc...

There's probably some small financial savings to be had at airports where
hangars are a lot more that tiedowns, but it's not nearly as much as the
straight difference in price.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

This may be one of those religious issues like high vs low wing. I doubt anyone
is going to be swayed one way or the other. But anyway...

Ben Jackson wrote:

In article 1104417758.851483@sj-nntpcache-3, Dave Butler wrote:
At my airport, at the end of 10 years I'd have spent an extra $27000, the
difference between hangaring and an outside tie-down. I think I could do a
pretty nice restoration (if it needed it, which it won't) for $27000.

In ten years the new paintjob you'll need will be half that. You'll

That would truly be a first-class paint job. If you're going to be spending that
kind of money on paint, no wonder you want to spend even more on hangars to
protect your investment. I'm not that much into paint.

manage to spend some of the rest on higher insurance premiums, new

my insurance premiums didn't change when I moved out of the hangar.

plexiglass from UV crazing,

that's what the cabin cover is for.

extra sets of tires,

I wear out my tires, they don't have time to deteriorate due to exposure.

maintenance or loss of value due to corrosion,

OK, I'll give you a small point on that one.

... Meanwhile you put up with the inconvenience
of operating from a tiedown,

Inconvenience? You taxi in, shutdown, and walk away. No tugs, no hangar doors.
Same thing when you depart. You start up and taxi out, no tugs, no hangar doors.

The fuel truck comes to the tiedown and fuels you before you get there or after
you're gone. At my airport, if you have a hangar, you have to pull the plane out
of the hangar to have it fueled. That means you have to personally be there and
wait for the fuel truck (yes, of course, there are other reasons for personally
supervising fueling).

like washing the plane more often,

Yeah, OK, but it's not that bad (for me). Depends on how fussy you are, I suppose.

messing with tiedowns,

What messing?

covers (oh, I hate covers),

I hate tugs and hangar doors.

ice and snow, mud, etc...

OK, I'll give you another point. Not too bad in my climate (NC), the biggest
problem is early morning departures in wintertime frost on the airframe. I don't
do very many of those, and when I need to, I can get an overnight hangar for
$15, or point it into the sun and wait an hour and it will melt on its own.


There's probably some small financial savings to be had at airports where
hangars are a lot more that tiedowns, but it's not nearly as much as the
straight difference in price.

Take out the "nearly" and I'll agree with you.

I think the main difference between the hangar zealots and the cheapouts is how
anal they are about having a showpiece vs. the people who just like to fly. The
hangar crowd are the same ones who drive Escalades and spend their weekends
washing and waxing them.

There, that ought to liven up the conversation... ;-)

Dave

Stealth Pilot wrote:
snip
the implicit assumption in your post is that an aircraft just prior
to
restoration will be enjoyable and safe to fly. will it?


A lot depends on the local environment. I live in the desert and
most of the airplanes around here are tied down outside. My plane has
been sitting outside for the better part of 25 years and it has no
corrosion problems. Neither did my previous plane. After 25 years of
outside storage, my plane is quite enjoyable and safe to fly. In the
last 10 yrs. I've saved $27,600US over the cost of a hangar (assuming
one was available).

The waiting list for hangars at my local airport has surpassed 10
yrs. Availablility is not much better at any of the other local
aiports. I could buy one of the private hangars that are being built
locally, but the cost would be approximately double what my plane is
worth.

To hangar or not to hangar is one of those questions that will depend
on the local environment and the airplane. I might worry about tying
down a fabric covered plane, for fear of deterioration from UV rays,
but I have no qualms about leaving my aluminum bird sitting on the
ramp.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

Stealth Pilot wrote:
: On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 01:38:56 -0800, "Slip'er"
: wrote:
:This bird will be parked outside,
:most likely.
: I'm an aircraft owner so dont be offended when I say that that is a
: truely dumb decision.

I'm an aircraft owner so don't be offended when I tell you that we cannot
all live in that perfect world.

In the 4 years that I have had my airplane I have "saved" $10,320 over
having the plane hangered. There is still a 12-year waiting list for
hangers - they say that a few will be built next year (all are already
allocated). You cannot build your own hanger. There is one for sale
at a nearby airport for $35,000 which is 61% of the value of my airplane.
It has neither heat nor electricity.
There are a few nice hangers for sale in southern New Hampshire in the
$100,000 range.
I find that my cabin cover and wing covers do a fine job of keeping the
paint in good shape. In 4 more years when it needs to be repainted I will
have more than $20,000 in "savings" that can be applied to a nice paint
job.
I have a series built aluminum airplane, so the potential problems of
having it sit outside are well known. If you've got a rare, or fabric covered,
or very expensive airplane by all means hanger it if you can.
--
Aaron C.

I'm an aircraft owner so dont be offended when I say that that is a
truely dumb decision.

There must be a lot of dumb people out there because there are a ton of
airplanes tied-down on ramps all over the country.

no kidding, your first decision as an intending aircraft owner should
ALWAYS be "where am I going to hangar it?"

Well, my local airport OKB has about 26 hangars. About 6 of those are not
rentable due to lack of structural integrety. The others hav broken doors
and blue tarps on the roof with tires holding it down. These hangars go for
$400 per month. They stopped taking names when the waiting list for a
hanger reached 100 people. The airport is building 21 additional hangers
which with any luck will be done in 2005. When this happens, the rent on
ALL hangers will be $500+ per month (T-hanger). I have no hope of getting a
hanger here for a long long long time. But, parking it outside might be
possible. The monthly tie-down is about $100 per month so I save $400 per
month parking outside. The next closest airport is L18 with what I believe
to be similar hanger rates ( I do need to check) CRQ is third closest but
expect to pay $600 - $900 for a hanger here and there is nothing available.
Not to mention that CRQ is pushing out small GA for jet centers.

Now F70 could be an option and I believe that I might be able to get a hange
for about $300/mo if my memory is correct BUT, now my plane is over an hour
away.

One of my engineering contractors has a Pitts hangered in NC for $120/month.
Of course, in many parts of the country the question should be where am I
going to hanger my plane. But here in Southern California the difference is
likely $5,000+ per year and then only if you are lucky enough to get into
one. I know pilots who have been on waiting lists for 6 years.

just close your eyes and consider the difference in airworthiness
between a hangared aircraft and one sitting in the open after 1 year,
5 years, ten years. after that time one aircraft will just about be in
pristine condition and the other close to needing extensive
restoration.

Weather takes its toll but here in SoCal it isn't too bad although I am
quite close to the coast. OKB is only 2 miles from the beach and gets quite
a marine layer for a few months of the year.

hangarage will save you thousands of dollars over the life of an
aircraft.

Heck, as I mentioned, I can save "thousands" of dollars every year parking
it outside. Taking the example to the extreme... A used 7ECA with about
1000 hrs TBO can be had for $35K. Assume I save $5k/year in Tie-down. That
means in 7 years I have saved enough money to buy another 7ECA. --So fly
the plane about 140 hours per year sell it for $10,000 with a runout engine
and bad fabric and go buy a new plane every 7 years. Heck, I even saved
enough money to pay for my fuel.

Slip'er

In my opinion, parking a plane outside is false economy. You save a
little each month, but pay for it in other ways:

See my previous reply to false economy. Many of your examples are valid
points but SoCal is a very expensive place to hanger an aircraft and the
case may not hold up for this local area.

-Plane will continuously need a wash (washing a plane = major time
sink)

ROFL!!! This is California. Many airports won't let you wash your plane.
Water = Runoff = Ecological disaster!

-Worrying every time a storm pulls thru

Up until a few days ago, I would have said this isn't a big issue in San
Diego.

Finally, I believe the Citabria's have fabric wings, which is not a
good choice for a permanent outdoor enviroment.

I have seen Citabrias parked outside around here for years. Fabric holds up
"pretty" well and these are rental planes that are never cleaned or have UV
protectant on them. I would probably clean my plane much more and
definitely apply UV protectant a few times a year.

If there is a possibility that finances could be tight in the future,
pilots are much better off renting or joining a flying club...

There is ALWAYS a chance that finances could be tight in the future. That
is one of the reasons for my 5 year vacation from flying. The new plane
will be a cash purchase with a healthy reserve account for *most* unexpected
events. Very few clubs rent Citabrias. Try to schedule one for a weekend
and they laugh, that is when the rent them for aerobatics instruction.
Scheduling issues just drove me nuts so I decided to quit flying until I
could buy my own. Plus, a few times the aircraft came back with squaks that
weren't logged that I found during preflight. A couple of them made me
cancel the flight for safety...another reason I decided to quit renting
until I could buy.

Slip'er

I want to touch on your point about renting and being grounded.

I started flying early 2003. But before I did, I took a lot of time doing
tons of research on what would be best for me as far as owning or renting.
After I made the decision to rent, I then took an equally intesive search
for where. I visited all of the FBOs withing a two hour drive of me, I live
in Northern Cal, Bay Area, so that is a lot of flight schools to visit. The
whole purpose of this was to find the school that had the best aircraft, the
best maintenance program, the best instructors, etc. My thought was I
didn't wanna fly anything substandard and put my welfare in jeopardy. Well,
I finally made a decision on the flight school and have stuck with them ever
since I started close to 2 years ago (2 year anniversary Feb '05).

I guess my point is your woes about renting can be overcome if you do your
diligence and get yourself a great FBO. I have never been grounded for
surprise squaks, they have enough airplanes to handle their full load of
students and regular renters. They have an immaculate maintenance program.
And yes, most of their planes live outside.


"Slip'er" wrote in message
news:8f0Bd.20478$8e5.16655@fed1read07...
In my opinion, parking a plane outside is false economy. You save a
little each month, but pay for it in other ways:

See my previous reply to false economy. Many of your examples are valid
points but SoCal is a very expensive place to hanger an aircraft and the
case may not hold up for this local area.

-Plane will continuously need a wash (washing a plane = major time
sink)

ROFL!!! This is California. Many airports won't let you wash your plane.
Water = Runoff = Ecological disaster!

-Worrying every time a storm pulls thru

Up until a few days ago, I would have said this isn't a big issue in San
Diego.

Finally, I believe the Citabria's have fabric wings, which is not a
good choice for a permanent outdoor enviroment.

I have seen Citabrias parked outside around here for years. Fabric holds
up
"pretty" well and these are rental planes that are never cleaned or have
UV
protectant on them. I would probably clean my plane much more and
definitely apply UV protectant a few times a year.

If there is a possibility that finances could be tight in the future,
pilots are much better off renting or joining a flying club...

There is ALWAYS a chance that finances could be tight in the future. That
is one of the reasons for my 5 year vacation from flying. The new plane
will be a cash purchase with a healthy reserve account for *most*
unexpected
events. Very few clubs rent Citabrias. Try to schedule one for a weekend
and they laugh, that is when the rent them for aerobatics instruction.
Scheduling issues just drove me nuts so I decided to quit flying until I
could buy my own. Plus, a few times the aircraft came back with squaks
that
weren't logged that I found during preflight. A couple of them made me
cancel the flight for safety...another reason I decided to quit renting
until I could buy.

Slip'er

for where. I visited all of the FBOs withing a two hour drive of me, I live
in Northern Cal, Bay Area, so that is a lot of flight schools to visit. The
whole purpose of this was to find the school that had the best aircraft, the
best maintenance program, the best instructors, etc. My thought was I
didn't wanna fly anything substandard and put my welfare in jeopardy. Well,
I finally made a decision on the flight school and have stuck with them ever
since I started close to 2 years ago (2 year anniversary Feb '05).

I live in the bay area, and I'm did a similar search. I curious, which
flying club did you settle on?

I live in Hayward, and chose California Airways at KHWD.

I changed my name ... I didn't think "ohfuk24" was appropriate.

Actually, I too live in Hayward. Maybe we should get together sometime and
share stories. All the schools at HWD left a bad taste in my mouth. Along
with the problem of being smack dab in the midde of OAKs charlie airspace I
decided to go with a school at Livermore (LVK). The school is Ahart
Aviation and I would probably recommend them to anyone.

You can get them at their website at http://www.ahart.com

Please feel free to email me personally anytime and maybe we can start up a
new friendship.


wrote in message
news:1104454261.e35b32eb4f2ab8273010637f85d424ee@t eranews...

for where. I visited all of the FBOs withing a two hour drive of me, I
live
in Northern Cal, Bay Area, so that is a lot of flight schools to visit.
The
whole purpose of this was to find the school that had the best aircraft,
the
best maintenance program, the best instructors, etc. My thought was I
didn't wanna fly anything substandard and put my welfare in jeopardy.
Well,
I finally made a decision on the flight school and have stuck with them
ever
since I started close to 2 years ago (2 year anniversary Feb '05).

I live in the bay area, and I'm did a similar search. I curious, which
flying club did you settle on?

I live in Hayward, and chose California Airways at KHWD.