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#31
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Winch launch procedure and accidents
Dan G wrote:
Vaughn and John, that's why you do pre-flight checks. Of course. But then, pilots do mistakes. Otherwise there would be no accidents. So the point is to behave in a manner that you have options even when you made a mistake or even two. Of course I would grab the release knob if it were buried somewhere between my legs. But I don't if it's easily reachable. I do touch it once before takeoff though, as part of my departure briefing. |
#32
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Winch launch procedure and accidents
On 5 Sep, 10:37, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Sep 5, 8:03 am, Ian wrote: On 5 Sep, 01:31, Dan G wrote: You do not attach a cable to the glider until it is ready to fly. All checks complete, nothing left to do. Yes, precisely. I don't see any problems with that. I'll go further and state that I would need to be convinced that anything else was safer. Agreed - as long as the ground crew (signaller, driver, anyone else involved at the site in question) are also ready to go. Which is fine in an ideal world. But it doesn't always work like that. Sometimes there are delays, and a safe system will take account of that possibility. Er, what's the problem with releasing the cable if there's a delay? In what way isn't that a "safe system"? How long a delay? Ten seconds? Twenty? A minute? What if the ground is muddy and the pilot doesn;t want to make someone grovel in the mud again to reattach? What if an impatient instructor (I have seen this) is saying "Don't drop the cable, this won't take long". Yes, in an ideal world we could hook up and go. I just think the final word on whether to start the launch should rest with the pilot in charge ... and in a world where occasional delays between hook-up and launch are inevitable, that means the pilot should initiate the launch after the hook-up. My reasons for liking the "Up slack" and "All out" signals from the pilot are because too many signallers are rotten at deciding when to do the transition (although most are fine). I have in the past pulled off because the signaller was giving "All out" too soon, and I'll do it again if I have to ... It's when people start thinking that the rules will keep them safe that accidents happen. True, but of course that has only tangential relevance to whether or not the rules are good. I don't agree. No rules which are followed mindlessly are good. Ian |
#33
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Winch launch procedure and accidents
On 5 Sep, 09:41, Rory O'Conor
wrote: I do take my hand off the release towards the end of the ground run. Why. Please could you expand as to what nasty accident might result due to me having my hand ON the release at the beginning of the ground run. Glider hits a bump in a field. You pull the release. Ian |
#34
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Winch launch procedure and accidents
On Sep 5, 2:40 pm, Ian wrote:
On 5 Sep, 10:37, Tom Gardner wrote: On Sep 5, 8:03 am, Ian wrote: On 5 Sep, 01:31, Dan G wrote: You do not attach a cable to the glider until it is ready to fly. All checks complete, nothing left to do. Yes, precisely. I don't see any problems with that. I'll go further and state that I would need to be convinced that anything else was safer. Agreed - as long as the ground crew (signaller, driver, anyone else involved at the site in question) are also ready to go. If anyone isn't ready to go, then the launch doesn't start. If anyone thinks there's a problem, they can stop the launch. I don't see any difficulty in that, and I can't conceive of anything else being appropriate. Which is fine in an ideal world. But it doesn't always work like that. Sometimes there are delays, and a safe system will take account of that possibility. Er, what's the problem with releasing the cable if there's a delay? In what way isn't that a "safe system"? How long a delay? Ten seconds? Twenty? A minute? Reasonable question. I would have thought that there was no single correct answer and doesn't need to be; judgement is required from everybody. My only rule of thumb is that if people's attention might wander away from thinking about the launch and/or "eventualities", then drop the cable. Thus a minute is probably usually OK, whereas 5 minutes isn't. Other opinions welcome, of course. What if the ground is muddy and the pilot doesn't want to make someone grovel in the mud again to reattach? The pilot is a twit if they let that sway a safety decision. What if an impatient instructor (I have seen this) is saying "Don't drop the cable, this won't take long". It depends on what "this" is, and I'd apply my "attention test", as above. Yes, in an ideal world we could hook up and go. I just think the final word on whether to start the launch should rest with the pilot in charge ... Nope, it rests with everybody involved in the launch, in that all must be happy before proceeding. In particular, the pilot can't adequately see "all clear above and behind", nor the cow that has just wandered onto the strip, just over that little hump halfway down the strip and in a world where occasional delays between hook-up and launch are inevitable, that means the pilot should initiate the launch after the hook-up. See above. My reasons for liking the "Up slack" and "All out" signals from the pilot are because too many signallers are rotten at deciding when to do the transition (although most are fine). I have in the past pulled off because the signaller was giving "All out" too soon, and I'll do it again if I have to ... I've never seen that, but if I did then I'd follow your action (hopefully without hesitation It's when people start thinking that the rules will keep them safe that accidents happen. True, but of course that has only tangential relevance to whether or not the rules are good. I don't agree. No rules which are followed mindlessly are good. The rule can be good even if it is mindlessly followed. Most of the time I mindlessly follow the rule to drive on the left side of the road But both of us think the reason for the rule should be understood before it is mindlessly followed! |
#35
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Winch launch procedure and accidents
On Sep 5, 2:43 pm, Ian wrote:
On 5 Sep, 09:41, Rory O'Conor wrote: I do take my hand off the release towards the end of the ground run. Why. Please could you expand as to what nasty accident might result due to me having my hand ON the release at the beginning of the ground run. Glider hits a bump in a field. You pull the release. Embarrassing, possibly, but that wouldn't worry me. I'd appreciate examples of *nasty* consequences. |
#36
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Winch launch procedure and accidents
On Sep 5, 10:05 am, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Sep 5, 2:43 pm, Ian wrote: On 5 Sep, 09:41, Rory O'Conor wrote: I do take my hand off the release towards the end of the ground run. Why. Please could you expand as to what nasty accident might result due to me having my hand ON the release at the beginning of the ground run. Glider hits a bump in a field. You pull the release. Embarrassing, possibly, but that wouldn't worry me. I'd appreciate examples of *nasty* consequences. The only nasty consequences I can think of happen if you pull the release at 0-300 feet altitude. There is one less Discus (pilot was OK) in the world because of this just recently. So start the ground run with the hand on release, but remove it at liftoff. Todd |
#37
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Winch launch procedure and accidents
On Sep 5, 10:02 am, Tom Gardner wrote:
.... The rule can be good even if it is mindlessly followed. Most of the time I mindlessly follow the rule to drive on the left side of the road Hopefully, you convert mindfully when you are driving somewhere that uses the right hand side of the road :-) Todd 3S |
#38
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Winch launch procedure and accidents
On Sep 5, 3:41 pm, toad wrote:
On Sep 5, 10:05 am, Tom Gardner wrote: On Sep 5, 2:43 pm, Ian wrote: On 5 Sep, 09:41, Rory O'Conor wrote: I do take my hand off the release towards the end of the ground run. Why. Please could you expand as to what nasty accident might result due to me having my hand ON the release at the beginning of the ground run. Glider hits a bump in a field. You pull the release. Embarrassing, possibly, but that wouldn't worry me. I'd appreciate examples of *nasty* consequences. The only nasty consequences I can think of happen if you pull the release at 0-300 feet altitude. 300'? Bloody big bump There is one less Discus (pilot was OK) in the world because of this just recently. So start the ground run with the hand on release, but remove it at liftoff. I'm perfectly happy to believe that is correct, but I wonder whether this is akin to the arguments about why seatbelts can be dangerous in some circumstances. Balance of probabilities and all that. But considering dubious analogies with seatbelts is probably a mistake! |
#39
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Winch launch procedure and accidents
On Sep 5, 3:44 pm, toad wrote:
On Sep 5, 10:02 am, Tom Gardner wrote: ... The rule can be good even if it is mindlessly followed. Most of the time I mindlessly follow the rule to drive on the left side of the road Hopefully, you convert mindfully when you are driving somewhere that uses the right hand side of the road :-) No problems, except when in carparks, petrol stations, and when emerging from them onto the road. It also helps if the steering wheel is on the appropriate side of the car. OTOH, "right" and "left" have to be replaced by "your way" and "my way" since there is a demanding feeling that "turn right" means "turn across oncoming traffic". Surprisingly, I'm not the only person with those neurons in a twist! |
#40
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Winch launch procedure and accidents
Someone posted these scanned S&G PDF files to the winchdesign group
today. I'd seen one before and had been looking for one of the others. They may be posted elsewhere and familiar to some contributing to this thread. So I've made them more widely available. As some who had a ground loop many years again on a winch launch (tall, damp grass 12" and inexperienced wing runner that didn't run, but dropped the wing on all out), I'm with the hand on release. Wing down, get off. http://www.coloradosoaring.org/winch_safety.htm Frank Whiteley |
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