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Charles Lindbergh, racist & Nazi sympathizer
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"codefy" wrote
Some American hero. When Lindbergh died in Hawaii did he consider the people there with any more maturity than when he made his racist comments or did he just consider them his coolies ? Lindbergh died in what 1973? There had been a lot of change in Americans views toward race by that time. I think above all Lindbergh was an American and while he probably echoed the prevalent racial and isolationist views of the 1920's and 1930's in his heyday, ultimately he would be swayed by performance and character. By the end of his life he could not have been ignorant of the Tuskegee Airmen, Chappie James and Jesse Brown let alone Jackie Robinson. I can't prove it but I dare say he would have rather forgotten any racist remarks he might have made. Don't forget that after Pearl Harbor Lindbergh volunteered for active duty and was denied several times by Roosevelt who harbored a grudge over Lindbergh's comments on the superiority of the Luftwaffe in the late 1930's. A superiority that was as much Roosevelt's responsibility as it was Hitler's. Lindbergh's comments in those days were that the German's were so superior to us and we were so hopelessly outclassed we could not possibly affect the outcome of a modern war in Europe so why bother. He was right of course the US Army was not even in the top ten in size in the world. Bulgaria had a larger standing army. A single Luftflotte in 1940 had more aicraft than the entire US Army Air Corps. Lindbergh was guilty more of naivete' than Nazism. Lindbergh was taken in in many ways by such ruses as the only handful of a bomber type being flown from factory to factory and put back in the "production line" for him to examine all over again. John Dupre' |
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"JDupre5762" wrote in message ... "codefy" wrote (Snip) .....Don't forget that after Pearl Harbor Lindbergh volunteered for active duty and was denied several times by Roosevelt who harbored a grudge over Lindbergh's comments on the superiority of the Luftwaffe in the late 1930's. A superiority that was as much Roosevelt's responsibility as it was Hitler's. Your biases are showing. Roosevelt took office in the middle of a roaring depression and was elected not to build a war machine, but to resuscitate the moribund economy. The public would not have tolerated a rebuilding and expansion of our military while masses of Americans were still out of work. Lindbergh's comments in those days were that the German's were so superior to us and we were so hopelessly outclassed we could not possibly affect the outcome of a modern war in Europe so why bother. He was right of course..... He was wrong of course. He had never envisioned that an "arsenal of democracy", as Roosevelt called it, was even vaguely possible....one that could produce 50,000 warplanes in a year. He may have been right at the time he made that statement, but he was clearly wrong in the final analysis. .....the US Army was not even in the top ten in size in the world. Bulgaria had a larger standing army. A single Luftflotte in 1940 had more aicraft than the entire US Army Air Corps. Lindbergh was guilty more of naivete' than Nazism. Lindbergh was taken in in many ways by such ruses as the only handful of a bomber type being flown from factory to factory and put back in the "production line" for him to examine all over again. At the time he was invited to Germany to be given the wining and dining and propaganda tour, he went as a private citizen and allowed himself and his good name to be used by the Nazi Government for their own purposes. He should have been able to foresee that his involvement with them could not help but rub off on him, but he went anyway, without our government's blessings. The tarnishing of his name was the price he paid for his folly. George Z. John Dupre' |
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Don't forget that after Pearl Harbor Lindbergh volunteered for active duty and
was denied several times by Roosevelt who harbored a grudge over Lindbergh's comments on the superiority of the Luftwaffe in the late 1930's. He tried to resume his Col.'s commission in the reserve. It's a little leaden of him to insist on that; had he shown up at an enlistment office they would have had to take him and he would have lasted about a week as a private; national outcry would have insisted he take the role his talents suited him to. A superiority that was as much Roosevelt's responsibility as it was Hitler's. I think you must mean Congress here. Lindbergh's comments in those days were that the German's were so superior to us and we were so hopelessly outclassed we could not possibly affect the outcome of a modern war in Europe so why bother. Actually it was such comments to the British "Cliveden" set that confirmed their appeasement policies. Lindbergh's comments about the prowess of German bombers created visions of London in ruins, but in fact the bombers then in service--the ones he had seen in Germany--had the range for Britain only without a bombload. Now, if he was the aeronautical genius he was claimed to be, he would have noticed this. Yet he reported otherwise. He was a dupe or a co-conspirator. He was right of course the US Army was not even in the top ten in size in the world. Bulgaria had a larger standing army. A single Luftflotte in 1940 had more aicraft than the entire US Army Air Corps. "Standing"? Try figure in the reserves and the National Guard into that--as well as America's industrial capacity, the wonder of the world in 1940. As for that Luftflotte, try figuring in the orders placed in 1940--more than the Luftwaffe posessed. Lindbergh was taken in many ways by such ruses as the only handful of a bomber type being flown from factory to factory and put back in the "production line" for him to examine all over again. Well, check out the big brain on Lindy. No wonder the AAF didn't want him back. Can't see them tricking someone like Doolittle like this. |
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"JDupre5762" wrote in message
... "codefy" wrote Some American hero. When Lindbergh died in Hawaii did he consider the people there with any more maturity than when he made his racist comments or did he just consider them his coolies ? Lindbergh died in what 1973? There had been a lot of change in Americans views toward race by that time. I think above all Lindbergh was an American and while he probably echoed the prevalent racial and isolationist views of the 1920's and 1930's in his heyday, ultimately he would be swayed by performance and character. Seems to me that the essence of a Great Man is to be able to see beyond conventional wisdom and to examine persons and situations independently and reach one's own conclusions and where possible, act on them. When it came to race and to anti-Semitism, Mr. Lindbergh, although IIRC a minister's son, seems not to have conducted such a self-examination. One wonders whether Lindbergh ever was in touch with the so-called "average American" or whether he could recognize and relate to views other than those fashionable in the circles in which he habituated. By the end of his life he could not have been ignorant of the Tuskegee Airmen, Chappie James and Jesse Brown let alone Jackie Robinson. I can't prove it but I dare say he would have rather forgotten any racist remarks he might have made. Don't forget that after Pearl Harbor Lindbergh volunteered for active duty and was denied several times by Roosevelt who harbored a grudge over Lindbergh's comments on the superiority of the Luftwaffe in the late 1930's. A superiority that was as much Roosevelt's responsibility as it was Hitler's. Actually, FDR desired to harness the charisma and persuasiveness which Lindbergh possessed. Although FDR was certain, because of access to sources of his own, independent of Lindbergh's, that Nazi Germany's aircraft industry had not the prowess its propaganda claimed for it, and that the US armaments industry, and especially the aircraft portion thereof, could be resuscitated and could become strong enough in a rather short period of time so as to be able to interpose effectively against any expansionist ambitions held by the Axis, it is apparently not widely known that FDR, in the wake of Lindbergh's German tour, offered the latter the position of US aircraft acquisition czar, with wide delegation of authority in overseeing US R&D and contracting; he wanted Lindbergh "on the team" instead of jeering from the sidelines and counseling caution, if not defeatism. Lindbergh refused, believing that FDR merely wanted to remove an irritating naysayer and silence his independent voice of opposition. Whereas FDR's attitude was "We'll show them!", Lindbergh's attitude reflected a certain defeatism, "We'll never be able to match them, and let's not waste our energies trying to" attitude, and he appeared to be ready to accept a second-rate status for the US in world affairs, because intimidated by a Nazi/Axis show of force. As for his return to active duty, I submit that such a thing would have opened a can of worms. Would Lindbergh have been able to submit to military discipline? Would he have been able to contribute effectively in a system where his word or opinion was not necessarily considered tantamount to revelation? It is well to remember that no nation, including the US, forced the Nazis to re-arm in defiance of the WWI peace accords. FDR bore no responsibility for the collapse of the world-wide economy, other than to try to bring the US portion of it back to life. Lindbergh's comments in those days were that the German's were so superior to us and we were so hopelessly outclassed we could not possibly affect the outcome of a modern war in Europe so why bother. He was right of course the US Army was not even in the top ten in size in the world. Bulgaria had a larger standing army. A single Luftflotte in 1940 had more aircraft than the entire US Army Air Corps. Again, a Great Man has to have matching vision. In this case, he seemed determined to Think Small and seemed to lack an understanding of the latent manufacturing potential of the US, which was still badly scarred by the economic depression of the 1930's. As is well-known, once Gen Marshall's system was in place, the US began producing trained divisions at such a pace that, for example, WS Churchill initially could not comprehend how it was being done. Lindbergh could not envision a dramatic increase in the number of training a/c, pilots, transports, bombers, fighters, etc. which the US proved to be capable of producing in relatively short order. Lindbergh also appears to have missed out on the inter-allied information interchange which kick-started US electronics and airframe development efforts. Lindbergh was rightly called "Lucky Lindy" due to his successful solo Atlantic crossing. However, the intense and universal celebrity (and wealth) that became attached to him attendant thereto seems to have caused him, (as well as many a person in other fields), to wrongly consider himself expert at everything to which he turned his attention, and to believe that his every opinion was sacrosanct. But Lindbergh was not a trained engineer, as he demonstrated when the Nazis showed him around their alleged production facilities, and was clueless in assessing the current and potential industrial prowess of the US. Any of Gen Marshall's top staff could have told him that the US would expand its army many-fold in a brief time, if tasked to do so. Any of Adm Stark's top staff could have alerted him to the swelling size and strength of the US Navy, similarly. Lindbergh was guilty more of naivete' than Nazism. Lindbergh was taken in many ways by such ruses as the only handful of a bomber type being flown from factory to factory and put back in the "production line" for him to examine all over again. According to author "Ladislas Farago", intercepted German documents showed that the Germans considered Lindbergh to be akin to one of their propaganda agents who could be relied upon to cause their sentiments to become widely heard in the US. They were especially impressed by Lindbergh's expressed anti-Semitism. SNIP |
#6
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"S. Sampson" wrote in message ... "codefy" wrote Some American hero. When Lindbergh died in Hawaii did he consider the people there with any more maturity than when he made his racist comments or did he just consider them his coolies ? If there's a Hell I'm sure Lindbergh is roasting there for his racism & Nazi sympathies. You have to wonder how Lindbergh's grandson deals with that nasty part of the legend that he's living off of. Lindbergh's been dead longer than you've been alive. Only a red-neck would equate pacifism with sympathism. Just watched A&E Biography on the man - he was more than sympathetic - he admired Hitler. At one point he was going to move to Germany(1938), but Kristallnacht disturbed him and his wife, so he never bought the house and did move back to America. I'd have to say that while he was a mechanical genius and great aviator, he wasn't a great intellectual. He seems to have absorbed the views of some of his friends and made them his own. While his views on eugenics and Jews were and are abhorrent, I'm not sure they came from his heart either. He was caught up in hero worship - of Hitler and others. And he seemed also to be a contrarians - whatever Roosevelt said was bad. It cost him his Army Air Corps Career. And yes he was snowed by the Nazis about the power of the Luftwaffe - they played him - and he delivered the message the Nazi's wanted -that the Luftwaffe was invincible. Lindbergh passed the message on to Ambassador Kennedy - who was more than ready to believe it, being anti British. More discerning people in the state department took it with a grain of salt. I'm sure someone here has read a decent biography of the man which covers this stuff. James Linn |
#7
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James Linn wrote:
"S. Sampson" wrote in message ... "codefy" wrote Some American hero. When Lindbergh died in Hawaii did he consider the people there with any more maturity than when he made his racist comments or did he just consider them his coolies ? If there's a Hell I'm sure Lindbergh is roasting there for his racism & Nazi sympathies. You have to wonder how Lindbergh's grandson deals with that nasty part of the legend that he's living off of. Lindbergh's been dead longer than you've been alive. Only a red-neck would equate pacifism with sympathism. Just watched A&E Biography on the man - he was more than sympathetic - he admired Hitler. At one point he was going to move to Germany(1938), but Kristallnacht disturbed him and his wife, so he never bought the house and did move back to America. I'd have to say that while he was a mechanical genius and great aviator, he wasn't a great intellectual. He seems to have absorbed the views of some of his friends and made them his own. While his views on eugenics and Jews were and are abhorrent, I'm not sure they came from his heart either. He was caught up in hero worship - of Hitler and others. And he seemed also to be a contrarians - whatever Roosevelt said was bad. It cost him his Army Air Corps Career. And yes he was snowed by the Nazis about the power of the Luftwaffe - they played him - and he delivered the message the Nazi's wanted -that the Luftwaffe was invincible. Lindbergh passed the message on to Ambassador Kennedy - who was more than ready to believe it, being anti British. More discerning people in the state department took it with a grain of salt. I'm sure someone here has read a decent biography of the man which covers this stuff. Make sure it also covers his work in the Pacific during WWII as a civilian tech rep in front-line units (flight test and profiling P-38s that resulted in nearly double operational range). Provides a bit of balance. rgds, KTF |
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Cecil Turner wrote in message ...
James Linn wrote: "S. Sampson" wrote in message ... "codefy" wrote Some American hero. When Lindbergh died in Hawaii did he consider the people there with any more maturity than when he made his racist comments or did he just consider them his coolies ? If there's a Hell I'm sure Lindbergh is roasting there for his racism & Nazi sympathies. You have to wonder how Lindbergh's grandson deals with that nasty part of the legend that he's living off of. Lindbergh's been dead longer than you've been alive. Only a red-neck would equate pacifism with sympathism. Just watched A&E Biography on the man - he was more than sympathetic - he admired Hitler. At one point he was going to move to Germany(1938), but Kristallnacht disturbed him and his wife, so he never bought the house and did move back to America. I'd have to say that while he was a mechanical genius and great aviator, he wasn't a great intellectual. He seems to have absorbed the views of some of his friends and made them his own. While his views on eugenics and Jews were and are abhorrent, I'm not sure they came from his heart either. He was caught up in hero worship - of Hitler and others. And he seemed also to be a contrarians - whatever Roosevelt said was bad. It cost him his Army Air Corps Career. And yes he was snowed by the Nazis about the power of the Luftwaffe - they played him - and he delivered the message the Nazi's wanted -that the Luftwaffe was invincible. Lindbergh passed the message on to Ambassador Kennedy - who was more than ready to believe it, being anti British. More discerning people in the state department took it with a grain of salt. I'm sure someone here has read a decent biography of the man which covers this stuff. Make sure it also covers his work in the Pacific during WWII as a civilian tech rep in front-line units (flight test and profiling P-38s that resulted in nearly double operational range). Provides a bit of balance. rgds, KTF Recognize that even in this position he was still commenting that "What we are doing to the Japs in the Pacific is the same as what the Germans are doing to the Jews". Certainly some sickening moral relativism. |
#9
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James Linn wrote: "S. Sampson" wrote in message ... "codefy" wrote Some American hero. When Lindbergh died in Hawaii did he consider the people there with any more maturity than when he made his racist comments or did he just consider them his coolies ? If there's a Hell I'm sure Lindbergh is roasting there for his racism & Nazi sympathies. You have to wonder how Lindbergh's grandson deals with that nasty part of the legend that he's living off of. Lindbergh's been dead longer than you've been alive. Only a red-neck would equate pacifism with sympathism. Just watched A&E Biography on the man - he was more than sympathetic - he admired Hitler. At one point he was going to move to Germany(1938), but Kristallnacht disturbed him and his wife, so he never bought the house and did move back to America. Some timetimes we all need a face slap to wake us up. I'd have to say that while he was a mechanical genius and great aviator, he wasn't a great intellectual. He seems to have absorbed the views of some of his friends and made them his own. While his views on eugenics and Jews were and are abhorrent, I'm not sure they came from his heart either. He was caught up in hero worship - of Hitler and others. And he seemed also to be a contrarians - whatever Roosevelt said was bad. It cost him his Army Air Corps Career. Most folks of the time wouldn't shed a tear if you hung a black man from a tree either. And Jews didn't have a large fan club either. Times change as does morality. Hittler had fans here & in the UK. Some misguided folk still are...... And yes he was snowed by the Nazis about the power of the Luftwaffe - they played him - and he delivered the message the Nazi's wanted -that the Luftwaffe was invincible. Lindbergh passed the message on to Ambassador Kennedy - who was more than ready to believe it, being anti British. More discerning people in the state department took it with a grain of salt. I'm sure someone here has read a decent biography of the man which covers this stuff. James Linn Well till the Battle of Britan they were unbeaten....... |
#10
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Lindbergh gets a little more attention than he deserves; the fate of the pop
celebrity, I suppose. Many more deserving intellectuals espoused isolationism, though they are long-forgotten now. Lindbergh's fate is, however, a reminder of how dangerous it can be to go against the political tides. Another, more significant and serious example of this is the poet Robinson Jeffers, once vastly popular, but condemned to obscurity by his opposition to US foreign policy. He could write about incest and bestiality and make the cover of Time magazine, but once he wrote, in his poem "Pearl Harbor," such lines as, ".... The men who have conspired and labored to embroil this republic in the wreck of Europe have got their bargain--and a bushel more...." and "....The war that we have carefully for years provoked Catches us unprepared, amazed and indignant. Our warships are shot Like sitting ducks and our planes like nest-birds, both our coasts ridiculously panicked, And our leaders make orations...." he was professionally dead and his popularity crashed, never to fully recover. Like Lindbergh, he hovered around the edges of the culture after the war, a figure from a past era whose continued presence seems to have made people uncomfortable. Jeffers was compared by Freeman Dyson to Einstein, not just because of his political and social vision but also his desire to discover a broader, truer sense of the universe and our place in it. Environmentalists like David Brower were drawn to him, and scientists like Loren Eisley; great historians of religion like Joseph Campbell and Huston Smith were avid students of Jeffers; and the photographers Ansel Adams and Edward Weston rooted their understanding of the sublime in nature, which they tried to capture in their art, in their reading of Jeffers. Of Tor House, the home in Carmel that Jeffers built for his strikingly beautiful wife Una with his own hands, stone by stone, incorporating such things as a meteor fragment and a stone from Ossian's grave, Stewart Brand, who wrote the classic "How Buildings Learn," said it was "the most intelligent building per square inch ever built in America." None of that mattered once Jeffers raised his voice against US foreign policy. I don't expect A&E, that citadel of intellectualism, to ever run a story on Robinson Jeffers, but he and Lindbergh seem to have had a lot in common, at least in their political views (I believe Lindbergh was also a proto-environmentalist like Jeffers). And they shared a common fate as losers in a vastly important debate on the position the US should play in the world. None of this is ancient history as the US is at a strikingly similar crossroads as it redefines its place in the world post 9-11. In Lindbergh's time, the opposition was a branch of the Republican party. This time the opposition is a branch of the Democratic party. That's about all that has changed. Chris Mark |
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