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#11
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Diamond Jim,
But come to think of it (I wasn't a Black Shoe so I don't know) but doesn't a vessel under sail have the right of way over any powered vessel? True, IIRC...as long as one doesn't care that exercising their right-of-way under this rule just might conflict with the Law Of Gross Tonnage. Newtonian mechanics trump all laws of Man. g *** Sea Story About "Vessels" - Very Tangential My Dad (also a retired Naval aviator) recalls a 1960s era visit he and several other officers made while serving on the USEUCOM staff to the then-U.S. Ambassador to Greece. This distinguished gent, a retired USN flag officer, regaled his visitors in proper fashion for a former naval person. (Translation: They did what all good sailormen do in port - they went drinking.) One of the EUCOM visitors, an Army LTC, asked the Ambassador, "...what vessel he liked the best in his naval career?" The Ambassador - by now several sheets to the wind - roared back, "A VESSEL IS SOMETHING YOU **** IN! AND A SHIP IS NOT A VESSEL!" -- Mike Kanze (not a shoe either, and trying hard to remember my International Rules of the Road) "In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!" - Homer Simpson "Diamond Jim" wrote in message . .. "Larry" wrote in message ... "John S. Shinal" wrote in message ... Woody Beal wrote: Command at sea. No other service quite matches it. Ultimate responsibility and accountability. Hard concept for those outside the Navy to understand sometimes. Looks tough. Dinged for someone in a dhow trying to run past the bow of a CVN. Or are they more upset over the a/c getting bent up? Yes, the cost of the A/C repair upsets the 'higher ups'. But the real big deal is that a little boat actually got close enough to contact the ship. Had it been loaded with explosives, there would have been a very different outcome. In this current climate of security, THIS is what really upsets the 'higher ups'. There have been similar incidents (in years past) that did not end up with the CO being relieved, but these days things have definetly changed. Larry AECS (AW/SW/MTS) USN 'Retired' 20 years if gettin 'em off the pointy end AND safely home again! I was at the local Naval Hospital last Friday and as I was waiting for my appointment I started to look at a recent copy of the Navy Times that another retired old fart set down. I only looked at it for about 15 seconds before I was called but, what I read said that the Dhow or whatever it was had been spotted and watched for a fairly long time. So it wasn't a surprise "Where did that SOB come from!" type of thing. I don't know if the JFK was at Flight Quarters, or what but if they were the JFK CO should have had one of the escorts shoulder the Dhow out of the way. Maybe the escorts have forgotten how to perform this maneuver since the cold war ended and they can't practice with the ruskie trawlers. Somehow I have gotten the impression from what others have said, what was on the news and in the papers, that the JFK CO, was depending on his having the right of way. But come to think of it (I wasn't a Black Shoe so I don't know) but doesn't a vessel under sail have the right of way over any powered vessel? Diamond Jim |
#12
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"Diamond Jim" wrote:
I was at the local Naval Hospital last Friday and as I was waiting for my appointment I started to look at a recent copy of the Navy Times that another retired old fart set down. I only looked at it for about 15 seconds before I was called but, what I read said that the Dhow or whatever it was had been spotted and watched for a fairly long time. So it wasn't a surprise "Where did that SOB come from!" type of thing. Which would appear to be even more damning for the JFK skipper. If his bridge crew, et al, were aware of it and "watch[ing] it for a fairly long time", HITH did they manage to run into it? I don't know if the JFK was at Flight Quarters, or what but if they were the JFK CO should have had one of the escorts shoulder the Dhow out of the way. Maybe the escorts have forgotten how to perform this maneuver since the cold war ended and they can't practice with the ruskie trawlers. Somehow I have gotten the impression from what others have said, what was on the news and in the papers, that the JFK CO, was depending on his having the right of way. But come to think of it (I wasn't a Black Shoe so I don't know) but doesn't a vessel under sail have the right of way over any powered vessel? Right of way questions, at sea or on shore, are a moot question after the fact - except for questions about who to hang. As many pedestrians learn every year, asserting one's right of way against an oncoming compact, much less an SUV, is even worse than a zero-sum game, the pedestrian is going to lose 100% of the time. Several Chesapeake day-sailers over the years have fallen afoul of the same thing, as they asserted their right of way over a freighter inbound to or outbound from Bawlamer. Still, whether or not the dhow had the right of way under the circumstances, doesn't really matter. Last I heard the USN frowns on its captains running into anything with their ship. Particularly if that "anything" has been under observation for quite a bit of time. -- OJ III [Email to Yahoo address may be burned before reading. Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast.] |
#13
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"Ogden Johnson III" wrote in message
I was at the local Naval Hospital last Friday and as I was waiting for my appointment I started to look at a recent copy of the Navy Times that another retired old fart set down. I only looked at it for about 15 seconds before I was called but, what I read said that the Dhow or whatever it was had been spotted and watched for a fairly long time. So it wasn't a surprise "Where did that SOB come from!" type of thing. Which would appear to be even more damning for the JFK skipper. If his bridge crew, et al, were aware of it and "watch[ing] it for a fairly long time", HITH did they manage to run into it? From my 'Shoe Days (1c Middie Cruise, USS BLANDY, Summer of '67) I recall that the Captain SHALL be notified of any vessel projected to pass within 5 nm of the ship. Of course, it would be Bad Form to ring up the CO and say, "**** call, you old son of bitch!" :-) I don't know if the JFK was at Flight Quarters, or what but if they were the JFK CO should have had one of the escorts shoulder the Dhow out of the way. Maybe the escorts have forgotten how to perform this maneuver since the cold war ended and they can't practice with the ruskie trawlers. Somehow I have gotten the impression from what others have said, what was on the news and in the papers, that the JFK CO, was depending on his having the right of way. But come to think of it (I wasn't a Black Shoe so I don't know) but doesn't a vessel under sail have the right of way over any powered vessel? Right of way questions, at sea or on shore, are a moot question after the fact - except for questions about who to hang. Indeed. But it does, or at least should, make a difference beforehand. Never having stood OOD on a Bird Farm I don't know if the Rules of the Road are modified during such things as FLTOPS, UNREP, etc. My very dim recollection is, "no." But it's been many years since Navigation and Piloting. As many pedestrians learn every year, asserting one's right of way against an oncoming compact, much less an SUV, is even worse than a zero-sum game, the pedestrian is going to lose 100% of the time. Ayup. Just a good way to generate a law suit. Several Chesapeake day-sailers over the years have fallen afoul of the same thing, as they asserted their right of way over a freighter inbound to or outbound from Bawlamer. Size counts, eh! :-) Still, whether or not the dhow had the right of way under the circumstances, doesn't really matter. Last I heard the USN frowns on its captains running into anything with their ship. Particularly if that "anything" has been under observation for quite a bit of time. Yeah, that "5 nm thing" still rattles around in my head. Bill Kambic Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão |
#14
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Bill,
Never having stood OOD on a Bird Farm I don't know if the Rules of the Road are modified during such things as FLTOPS, UNREP, etc. My very dim recollection is, "no." But it's been many years since Navigation and Piloting. Many years here, too. Speculation: It wouldn't surprise me if certain operations like you cited create a "burdened vessel" situation, one in which other traffic would be obliged to steer clear despite their otherwise having the right-of-way. This also presupposes that the burdened vessel is flying all the proper flags, lights and shapes, and is signaling appropriately for her situation. Still - as others have already pointed out - the above is moot if you are a USN Skipper and your hull touches something it shouldn't. Sidebar: Having crewed on a 34' sloop, I know the USCG is very particular about pleasure sailing craft flying the appropriate shape (daytime) whenever they are maneuvering under BOTH sail and power. (Inland Rules of the Road, I think.) In these instances, the sailing craft is treated as a non-burdened vessel and has no more right-of-way than any other motorized watercraft. Flying the shape is necessary also because many pleasure sailcraft have inboard engines that aren't readily apparent by distant visual inspection. -- Mike Kanze "If history repeats itself, I should think we can expect the same thing again." - NBC softball analyst at the 2004 Summer Olympics (This one earned the Yogi Berra Award.) "Bill Kambic" wrote in message ... "Ogden Johnson III" wrote in message I was at the local Naval Hospital last Friday and as I was waiting for my appointment I started to look at a recent copy of the Navy Times that another retired old fart set down. I only looked at it for about 15 seconds before I was called but, what I read said that the Dhow or whatever it was had been spotted and watched for a fairly long time. So it wasn't a surprise "Where did that SOB come from!" type of thing. Which would appear to be even more damning for the JFK skipper. If his bridge crew, et al, were aware of it and "watch[ing] it for a fairly long time", HITH did they manage to run into it? From my 'Shoe Days (1c Middie Cruise, USS BLANDY, Summer of '67) I recall that the Captain SHALL be notified of any vessel projected to pass within 5 nm of the ship. Of course, it would be Bad Form to ring up the CO and say, "**** call, you old son of bitch!" :-) I don't know if the JFK was at Flight Quarters, or what but if they were the JFK CO should have had one of the escorts shoulder the Dhow out of the way. Maybe the escorts have forgotten how to perform this maneuver since the cold war ended and they can't practice with the ruskie trawlers. Somehow I have gotten the impression from what others have said, what was on the news and in the papers, that the JFK CO, was depending on his having the right of way. But come to think of it (I wasn't a Black Shoe so I don't know) but doesn't a vessel under sail have the right of way over any powered vessel? Right of way questions, at sea or on shore, are a moot question after the fact - except for questions about who to hang. Indeed. But it does, or at least should, make a difference beforehand. Never having stood OOD on a Bird Farm I don't know if the Rules of the Road are modified during such things as FLTOPS, UNREP, etc. My very dim recollection is, "no." But it's been many years since Navigation and Piloting. As many pedestrians learn every year, asserting one's right of way against an oncoming compact, much less an SUV, is even worse than a zero-sum game, the pedestrian is going to lose 100% of the time. Ayup. Just a good way to generate a law suit. Several Chesapeake day-sailers over the years have fallen afoul of the same thing, as they asserted their right of way over a freighter inbound to or outbound from Bawlamer. Size counts, eh! :-) Still, whether or not the dhow had the right of way under the circumstances, doesn't really matter. Last I heard the USN frowns on its captains running into anything with their ship. Particularly if that "anything" has been under observation for quite a bit of time. Yeah, that "5 nm thing" still rattles around in my head. Bill Kambic Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão |
#15
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"Mike Kanze" wrote in message
Never having stood OOD on a Bird Farm I don't know if the Rules of the Road are modified during such things as FLTOPS, UNREP, etc. My very dim recollection is, "no." But it's been many years since Navigation and Piloting. Many years here, too. Speculation: It wouldn't surprise me if certain operations like you cited create a "burdened vessel" situation, one in which other traffic would be obliged to steer clear despite their otherwise having the right-of-way. This also presupposes that the burdened vessel is flying all the proper flags, lights and shapes, and is signaling appropriately for her situation. Could be. I just don't remember. No 'Shoes about, eh? :-) While we are on the subject of "hearsay sea stories" I stood Shore Patrol Officer one night in Greenoch, Scotland. It was a pretty good deal, as I got to have dinner at the RN Officer's Mess and they made the Yank pretty welcome. One of the RN LTs told a story about HMS ARK ROYAL (we had just completed some ops with that ship and USS INDEPENDANCE). He said he was OOD one day during an UNREP. All was going smoothly, when their AGI decided to play "chicken of the sea." He ran a couple of miles ahead of the oiler and carrier, then reversed course, putting himself in the position of privelegded vessel. His intent was run between the oiler and carrier, causing an emergency breakaway (creates quite a mess, I am told, when done with NSFO flowing in the pipes). The Captain had just entered the bridge as the AGI started his run. The LT, who had the deck was about to order an emergency breakaway when he heard the Captain say, "This is the Captain, I have the con." He looked at the CO, who was staring straight ahead. He asked the Captain if he wanted to secure pumping and the Captain said, "No." By now the AGI was committed and ran between the two ships, resulting in a Very Near Miss. Of course, as the AGI proceeded bewteen, he parted four fuel lines, all charged. The AGI turned from a pretty shade of white and gray to a VERY dirty brown. Mast head to water line. Stem to stern. (For those of you not familiar with Navy Standard Fuel Oil, it is a tar-like stuff that must be heated to flow. When cooled it has the consistency of a very sticky asphalt.) The Captain then immediately ordered a helo launched to take pictures. He returned the con to the LT and retired to his sea cabin. For the next week or so the deck apes on that AGI had quite a cleanup problem. There were photos on the wall in the bar. Still - as others have already pointed out - the above is moot if you are a USN Skipper and your hull touches something it shouldn't. Amen. Sidebar: Having crewed on a 34' sloop, I know the USCG is very particular about pleasure sailing craft flying the appropriate shape (daytime) whenever they are maneuvering under BOTH sail and power. (Inland Rules of the Road, I think.) In these instances, the sailing craft is treated as a non-burdened vessel and has no more right-of-way than any other motorized watercraft. Flying the shape is necessary also because many pleasure sailcraft have inboard engines that aren't readily apparent by distant visual inspection. This is just one more reason that I will stick with houseboats on Watts Bar Lake. ;-) Bill Kambic Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão |
#16
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#17
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"LT Steven J Henderson" wrote in message
snipped for brevity Thanks for the very cogent and up to date explanation! ;-) Bill Kambic Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão |
#18
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In message , LT Steven J
Henderson writes snip The ship should have been flying Ball-Diamond-Ball or the appropriate lights to show that the huge gray ship launching and recovering aircraft was "Restricted in its ability to manuver." That means that the carrier, according to the Rules of the Road for international waters, has the right of way except for vessels adrift/not under command or anchored. The dhow, even if actively engaged in fishing or under sail power should have done everything practicable to avoid the collision. Would you expect the skipper/owner of a fishing dhow to know the rules to the detail that you know them? Or even any rules? Mike |
#19
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"M. J. Powell" wrote in message
The ship should have been flying Ball-Diamond-Ball or the appropriate lights to show that the huge gray ship launching and recovering aircraft was "Restricted in its ability to manuver." That means that the carrier, according to the Rules of the Road for international waters, has the right of way except for vessels adrift/not under command or anchored. The dhow, even if actively engaged in fishing or under sail power should have done everything practicable to avoid the collision. Would you expect the skipper/owner of a fishing dhow to know the rules to the detail that you know them? Or even any rules? He/she is charged with knowing them, even if they do not. If the carrier CO followed the rules and still had a loss then he might walk away. If there were any deviations on the part of the carrier crew or CO then the CO is probably toast. Bill Kambic Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão Mike |
#20
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Very helpful and informative, especially to those of us 30+ years out of the
cockpit or off the bridge. -- Mike Kanze "If history repeats itself, I should think we can expect the same thing again." - NBC softball analyst at the 2004 Summer Olympics (This one earned the Yogi Berra Award.) "LT Steven J Henderson" wrote in message . .. [rest snipped] |
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