Which Ultralight to build.....

On Jun 6, 12:40 am, "Montblack" Y4_NOT!...
wrote:
("Morgans" wrote)

Then, you get to the definition of the span to weight requirements of a
motorglider, which are not easy to meet. I do not think it meets the
requirements for a motorglider, by a long shot.

(Reposted in case someone didn't want to slog through my other post.)

As a 'Motorglider':
(ii) Maximum weight does not exceed 850 kg (1874 pounds);
and
(iii) The maximum weight to wing span squared (w/b2) does not exceed 3.0
kg/M2 (0.62 lb./ft.2).

500 lbs MTOW
and
28.5 ft wingspan = 812 (wing span squared)

500 lbs MTOW (/) 812 = 0.61576 lb./ft.2

...which does not exceed 0.62!

So yes, it is a motorglider

...IF the MTOW is 500 lbs
...or we go with longer wings
...or we follow the first link. g

http://www.usppa.org/Resources/FARs/part103_far.htm
(Part 103)

Home Depot Ultralight: aka "Motor Glider 101"http://www.digitalmarketingusa.com/homedepotultralight.html

Specifications:

Empty Weight: 254 lbs

Bull****.

First of all, since 254 lbs is the upper limit for FAR 103 any
supposed UL that is spec'ed at EXACLTY 254 lbs is suspect.

Secondly, when the first one was built (and have there been
any more?) the articles about it indicated it was much heavier.

How much does a 10 HP Tecumseh motor weigh, ~ 66 lb?
This plane has two of them, at least half the weight budget
is used by engines and props.

--

FF

wrote)
How much does a 10 HP Tecumseh motor weigh, ~ 66 lb?
This plane has two of them, at least half the weight budget is used by
engines and props.


Maybe they're structural, as well.


Montblack
Oh, all right ...... :-)

While wading into the technical requirements required to certify an aircraft
as motorglider, the basic definition a glider should not be overlooked.

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) defines a glider as a
heavier-than-air aircraft that is supported in flight by the dynamic
reaction of the air against its lifting surfaces, and whose free flight does
not depend on an engine.

As has been stated, gliders are launched by three methods, ground launch
(winch/auto-tow), aero-tow and self-launch (motor.)

It may be hard to convince FAA your homebuilt is a self-launch glider if it
can not maintain flight with the engine(s) turned off.

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder



"Montblack" wrote in message
...
("Morgans" wrote)
Then, you get to the definition of the span to weight requirements of a
motorglider, which are not easy to meet. I do not think it meets the
requirements for a motorglider, by a long shot.


(Reposted in case someone didn't want to slog through my other post.)

As a 'Motorglider':
(ii) Maximum weight does not exceed 850 kg (1874 pounds);
and
(iii) The maximum weight to wing span squared (w/b2) does not exceed 3.0
kg/M2 (0.62 lb./ft.2).

500 lbs MTOW
and
28.5 ft wingspan = 812 (wing span squared)

500 lbs MTOW (/) 812 = 0.61576 lb./ft.2

...which does not exceed 0.62!

So yes, it is a motorglider

...IF the MTOW is 500 lbs
...or we go with longer wings
...or we follow the first link. g

http://www.usppa.org/Resources/FARs/part103_far.htm
(Part 103)

Home Depot Ultralight: aka "Motor Glider 101"
http://www.digitalmarketingusa.com/h...ltralight.html

Specifications:

Empty Weight: 254 lbs
Stall Speed: 30 mph
Cruise Speed: 55 mph @ 2600 rpm.
Fuel Capacity: 5 US Gallons.
Wing Span: 28' 6"

Gross Weight: Not established, however pilot flew prototype with 5 gallons
fuel, pilot weight 225 lbs.


Montblack

("Richard Riley" wrote)
Consider - the sheep is not a creature of the air. They do not so much
fly as...plummet. But if you throw one off a cliff it will remain
airborne for a short period of time. To someone writing a rulebook,
that's flying.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9UwUZIuPH0
YouTube (plumeting) Kiwi video

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=14276 28097
MySpace (plumeting) Kiwi video


Montblack

On Jun 6, 3:33 pm, Richard Riley wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 08:29:36 -0600, "Wayne Paul"
wrote:

While wading into the technical requirements required to certify an aircraft
as motorglider, the basic definition a glider should not be overlooked.

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) defines a glider as a
heavier-than-air aircraft that is supported in flight by the dynamic
reaction of the air against its lifting surfaces, and whose free flight does
not depend on an engine.

As has been stated, gliders are launched by three methods, ground launch
(winch/auto-tow), aero-tow and self-launch (motor.)

It may be hard to convince FAA your homebuilt is a self-launch glider if it
can not maintain flight with the engine(s) turned off.

All aircraft can maintain flight with the engine(s) turned off. The
question is how for how long, and how far.


The Sky Pup ultralight is reported to have a glide ratio of 14 to 1,
almost as good as a Schweitzer glider.
....

The weight/span squared is a reasonable stab at L/D that you can do
with simple tools (scale, tape measure) and without having to estimate
drag. If a few people figure out how to game the system, I think FAA
is OK with that. So, you get a few heavy ULs. They're not going to
be THAT heavy, and even though the pilot doesn't have to have a
medical he DOES have to have a pilot's certificate. With the
comparitively light weight and long wing, he's going to have a pretty
low stall speed. If he crashes into a house he's going to do MUCH
more damage to himself and his machine than the house.

I think that's the key, to legally pilot a motorglider one must
have a glider license with a self-launch endorsement. So even
if the motorglider itself is just a glorified 'fat' ultralight, the
pilot at
least has some minimum required level of competency.

--

FF

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jun 6, 3:33 pm, Richard Riley wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 08:29:36 -0600, "Wayne Paul"
wrote:

While wading into the technical requirements required to certify an
aircraft
as motorglider, the basic definition a glider should not be overlooked.

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) defines a glider as a
heavier-than-air aircraft that is supported in flight by the dynamic
reaction of the air against its lifting surfaces, and whose free flight
does
not depend on an engine.

As has been stated, gliders are launched by three methods, ground launch
(winch/auto-tow), aero-tow and self-launch (motor.)

It may be hard to convince FAA your homebuilt is a self-launch glider if
it
can not maintain flight with the engine(s) turned off.

All aircraft can maintain flight with the engine(s) turned off. The
question is how for how long, and how far.


The Sky Pup ultralight is reported to have a glide ratio of 14 to 1,
almost as good as a Schweitzer glider.
...

....Snip

I think that's the key, to legally pilot a motorglider one must
have a glider license with a self-launch endorsement. So even
if the motorglider itself is just a glorified 'fat' ultralight, the
pilot at
least has some minimum required level of competency.


Let's see, Schweizer single place gliders
1-7 glide ratio 17:1 designed 1937
1-19 glide ration 16:1 designed 1944
1-20 glide ratio 18:1 designed 1947
1-21 glide ratio 27:1 designed 1947
1-23 glide ratio 29:1 designed 1953
1-24 glide ratio 30:1 designed ?
1-26 glide ratio 23:1 designed 1954
1-29 glide ratio 34:1 designed ?
1-34 glide ratio 34:1 designed ?
1-35 glide ratio 38:1 designed 1960s
1-36 glide ratio 31:1 designed 1960s

Two place Schweizer gliders
2-8 glide ratio 23:1 designed Army designation TG-2
2-12 glide ratio 24:1 updated TG-2
2-22 glide ratio 17:1 designed 1945
2-25 glide ratio 32:1 designed 1956
2-32 glide ratio 33:1 designed late 1960s
2-33 glide ratio 23:1 designed 1965

Several years ago there were plans available for a 15 meter self launch
sailplane named Windrose. If you check the FAA database you will find about
half of them listed as gliders and the other half listed as airplanes. What
is listed on the airworthiness certificate determines the type certificate
requirements of the pilot. If it is list as a "glider" you must have a
glider rating with a self-launch endorsement; however, if it is registered
as an airplane you must have a single engine land rating.

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

"Wayne Paul" wrote in message
...

If it is list as a "glider" you must have a glider rating with a self-launch
endorsement; however, if it is registered as an airplane you must have a
single engine land rating.

Or, in some cases, a Light Sport ticket for either with the appropriate
training and signoffs.

Vaughn

("Vaughn Simon" wrote)
If it is list as a "glider" you must have a glider rating with a
self-launchbendorsement; however, if it is registered as an airplane you
must have a single engine land rating.

Or, in some cases, a Light Sport ticket for either with the appropriate
training and signoffs.


Huh? Which cases?


Montblack

"Vaughn Simon" wrote in message
...

"Wayne Paul" wrote in message
...

If it is list as a "glider" you must have a glider rating with a
self-launch endorsement; however, if it is registered as an airplane you
must have a single engine land rating.

Or, in some cases, a Light Sport ticket for either with the
appropriate training and signoffs.


The Light Sport glider training is very close to the Private Pilot glider
requirements. In addition the LSP 10,000' limitation is a big deal when
flying a glider in the Western US. (I was at about 9,000 when the following
picture was taken. http://tinyurl.com/2hj2fr Very few of the peaks in the
Lost River range are less the 11,000') Very few, if any, motor gliders have
a Vne less then the Light Sport glider 120 kt limit.

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/

"Wayne Paul" wrote

The Light Sport glider training is very close to the Private Pilot glider
requirements. In addition the LSP 10,000' limitation is a big deal when
flying a glider in the Western US. (I was at about 9,000 when the
following picture was taken. http://tinyurl.com/2hj2fr Very few of the
peaks in the Lost River range are less the 11,000') Very few, if any,
motor gliders have a Vne less then the Light Sport glider 120 kt limit.

Are you not allowed something like 1000 feet AGL, even if it over 1000
feet?
--
Jim in NC