A gaggle of questions about traning from an old geezer...

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:16:34 -0400, Bill Zaleski
wrote:

Taking
instrument training from an instructor who does not go into cloud is
like taking sex education from a virgin.

I attended a catholic school In England. Sex Ed was part of the the
3rd year Biology class. My Biology teacher was a nun.

Been there done that.

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:


I've got one tenth of your experience so take my point of view from that: I
think doing some actual with a student shortly before he's cut loose is a
tremendous confidence builder.

With all due respect to Bob's accomplishments...

So do I.

Most of my training was in VMC, with the instructor able to change plans
at will. We requested and got clearance to fly holds in the clouds
(with a tinge of ice!), and flew some of the cross country time in IMC,
one from minimums to minimums.

The hood also doesn't provide the effects of busting in and out of the
clouds.

SimGuy wrote:

I attended a catholic school In England. Sex Ed was part of the the
3rd year Biology class. My Biology teacher was a nun.

Just don't get in the habit.

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
46.128...
....

That's the way that the single engine jet-jocks did it in
advanced training at NAS Kingsville. Right out of the two
seat F9F into the single seat F8U and A4D. Of course, they
had proper training.

....

Bob Moore

Bob,

Come on; you surely don't advocate antiquated training methods today
just because that's the way it was done 50 years ago do you? I knew Navy
pilots were slow learners, but even I thought they were better than this.


--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas

Mitty wrote
If your instructor won't train you in IMC, you need a different
instructor.

Of course. Don't let people tell you otherwise.

On Sep 10, 1:33 pm, Bob Moore wrote:
Mitty, During my 20,000+ hours of flying, I have been a Navy
squadron level Instrument Instructor (P-2V/P-3B), an airline
Flight/Instrument Instructor for 5 years (B-707/B-727) and have
been an FAA Flight Instructor, Instrument-Airplane for the past
37 years. I don't train in IMC!

First, I don't know what kind of instructor you were at the airlines,
but every airline instructor I know (and I know several) who actually
teaches in the airplane (and not just in the sim) teaches in IMC. The
ones who teach in the sim use it to simulate IMC. How you got by
teaching VMC only in the 707/727 I don't know, but it's not done that
way anymore.

Second, and we've gone through this before, you are conveniently
ignoring the fact that while the military instrument rating is all
VMC, it is also a limited instrument rating. It does not allow the
newly minted military instrument pilot to self-dispatch into weather
the way the civilian instrument rating does. Self-dispatch authority
comes only with the (advanced, command - the terms vary with time and
service branch) instrument rating - and it requires IMC experience.

So I really hope you don't teach GA instrument pilots - because the GA
instrument pilot really needs to get supervised IMC experience before
the rating, as there will be no support system for him to get it
after, as there is in the military and airlines.

The Instructor needs to be in charge of the training flight,
not ATC.

The capable instrument instructor has no problem staying in charge of
the flight, VFR or IFR. Working with ATC to get what you need while
working within the system is part of the job. If you can't do that,
you have either an ego problem or a skill problem.

The first phase of instrument training should consist ONLY of
basic control of the airplane by reference to instruments, don't
even turn on the NAV radios until a student can proficiently
fly the patterns contained in the FAA Instrument Flying Handbook,
H-8083-15. The older edition has even better patterns.

Different people take different amounts of time to learn the control
skills required for pattern A and pattern B. Some people can do it in
under five hours. Some of those who have played flight sim can do it
in less than one. In my experience, the people who need the most time
to learn to control the plane solely by reference to instruments are
the natural stick-and-rudder guys. Maybe that's why the military
calls for 60 (or is it 70) hours for the instrument. I felt 40 was
way more than I needed, and had to burn off time with a safety pilot.

The next phase consists of VOR radial interception and tracking.
I don't want to even see an approach chart (IAP)until the student
has mastered these plus holding.

Once again - some are quick, some are slow. And in any case, holding
in IMC is VERY easy to get if you know how to work with ATC. Done it
many times so my students could hold in actual. Who knows when
they'll get to do it again...

Do you hold an FAA Flight Instructor, Instrument-Airplane certificate
and rating to qualify you to make the quoted statement?

Since when is a piece of plastic a prerequisite for an informed
opinion?

In any case - I do hold a CFI - airplane single and multi, instrument
airplane, and glider. Also an ATP. And I agree with him. So does
every other instructor with an ATP that I know. You're the lone
exception.

Michael

Been out of town, so I'm late with this...right on, Bob!!!

Bob Gardner

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
46.128...
Mitty wrote
If your instructor won't train you in IMC, you need a different
instructor.

Mitty, During my 20,000+ hours of flying, I have been a Navy
squadron level Instrument Instructor (P-2V/P-3B), an airline
Flight/Instrument Instructor for 5 years (B-707/B-727) and have
been an FAA Flight Instructor, Instrument-Airplane for the past
37 years. I don't train in IMC!

During my 70 hours of instrument training during Navy flight
training (T-28,T-2V,S-2F), not one minute of it was done in
IMC, and only one long cross country was done under IFR.

The Instructor needs to be in charge of the training flight,
not ATC.

The first phase of instrument training should consist ONLY of
basic control of the airplane by reference to instruments, don't
even turn on the NAV radios until a student can proficiently
fly the patterns contained in the FAA Instrument Flying Handbook,
H-8083-15. The older edition has even better patterns.

The next phase consists of VOR radial interception and tracking.
I don't want to even see an approach chart (IAP)until the student
has mastered these plus holding.

Do you hold an FAA Flight Instructor, Instrument-Airplane certificate
and rating to qualify you to make the quoted statement?

And, just who-in-the-hell is "Mitty" anyway? Could be just another
one of the Flight Simmers as far as we know.

Bob Moore
ATP B-707, B-727, L-188
Flight Instructor, Airplane-SE, Instrument-Airplane