Janus 2-seat glider as a club glider?

On Monday, January 28, 2013 10:55:14 AM UTC-7, Bob Whelan wrote:
... The hand wringing about flaps is amusing. Every airplane trainer

these days has flaps - and, of course, an engine to manage. Come to

think of it, gliders are probably the only aircraft still manufactured

without flaps.



I've wondered about that too. I'd never flown a flapped ship until I

bought one. It didn't seem to be very complicated at the time, and

still doesn't.





I'll "third that". And in gliders, most of the flap-based hand wringing

concerns *only* camber-changing flaps, not large-deflection landing flaps

(simply because there are very few of the latter, relative to the glider

population as a whole). As Alice might say, "Curioser and curioser."



I transitioned from a 1-26 to a large deflection landing flapped glider 1975,

with ~125 total hours (all glider), and zero instructional hours in a flapped

ship of any sort (unavailable to me then/there). Yeah, I did have theoretical

knowledge of flap-effects on a wing's lift & drag curves as functions of angle

of attack, and yeah, I did mentally prepare myself, but the actual initial

flight/landing was strictly a non-event in terms of "flap-use-trauma". In the

event, I liked large deflection landing flaps so much that I never again owned

a single seat glider without 'em.



Further evidence that how a person thinks, matters?



Bob W.

The only guy I've ever flown with who just couldn't come to grips with flaps (IS28b2 Twin Lark) was a flight instructor whose entire flying career had been in 2-33's. He kept whining, "Can't we just set the flaps and not mess with them?" But then the elevator trim had him baffled and he wouldn't go near the 'retractable' gear handle.

Gotta agree Dan. I have known 2 ladies that did ab-initio training to solo and beyond in a Janus A and both turned out fine pilots. The quality of instruction is certainly what seals the deal

At my club we have a Duo X and a Discus CS that some people struggle to fly well and it is down to the lack of top quality instruction and a culture among some of the newer and older pilots where they are more concerned with getting 'credentialed' than actually gaining real skill. Just getting a box ticked off in the training syllabus to some of them means "I know all I have to about that now" instead of "I'm judged competent at that and I can now work on getting more skilled at it"

:-) Colin

Originally Posted by Dan Marotta

Thanks for that.

It's not about the complexity of the aircraft, it's entirely about the
quality of the instruction.


wrote in message
...
Le jeudi 17 janvier 2013 08:35:59 UTC+1, Eric Munk a écrit :
Depends on what you want to use it for. Ab initio: no way.

Why? I've been with a club in Germany (also as instructor) which did
ab-initio including first solo on a Janus B (later on on a Janus C).
No problem whatsoever.

About the Janus tail chute. I had a share of a Janus A back in the 80's. The sum total of the instruction I had in the use of the tail chute was poor at best, i.e. "get the nose down when deploying the chute or you'll never get the speed back"

After some flying around higher up with the chute deployed (deliberately) before joining the pattern one day I found the following; at low speed it would still glide as well or better than a Blanik as long as you kept the speed back, it would still thermal ok with the same caveat, keep the speed low and that the chute risers at slow speed would stream one side of the rudder or the other meaning a hefty push was needed to initiate a turn at which point they would pop under to the other side.

Would have been nice if someone had been able to share that with me right from the start. I didn't find it necessary to land it fast either, a quick check of the airbrakes at the flare would suffice if it was sinking on too quickly. Best field landing over a 4'6" fence was under 100 yards with everything hanging out and the useless drum brake giving a small amount of assistance

In all the flying in the Janus I did, the chute got used on about 75% of the flights and the ONLY failure I ever experienced was when deploying the chute while dumping water. (Karl and Iris were visiting New Zealand at the time and I had her as a passenger on that flight while Karl was off flying a borrowed ASW 20)

Ah the good old days. . .
Colin

Originally Posted by Eric Munk

Depends on what you want to use it for. Ab initio: no way. Advanced
trainer: not ideal. As a cross-country trainer it is well suited. Flaps, so
a bit more complicated to fly than other sialplanes for some pilots.
Relatively high landing speed. Forget about the drag chute (it works about
50-50 chance). It is a pig in maintenance in a club environment, especially
above 3000 hours. I had one that was on its 3rd set of wing-fuse pins, 7th
set of stabilizer attachments and play on controls was a constant issue.
The ironwares on Schempp-Hirth are disappointingly low quality, alas.

As Dan said elsewhere the quality of the instructors is the most important thing and if I had my time again I would still be very happy to have had XC training in any model Janus. Before I bought into a syndicate that owned a Janus A, I had one XC flight with a pilot who had won a few Nationals and done several world champs. What a lesson in how to fly!

Maybe I'm swayed by my good experiences but the Janus will do the job just fine

Originally Posted by K_Miller

I am interested in learning if other soaring clubs have a Janus 2-seat glider in their fleet, which model they have, its suitability as a club ship and whether they would recommend one to a club that was looking for a 2-seat cross country trainer.
If you have other personal experience in the Janus, your opinion would be appreciated.

On Monday, January 28, 2013 3:49:14 PM UTC-5, Ventus_a wrote:
...a culture... more concerned
with getting 'credentialed' than actually gaining real skill...

I'd like to think that that position is a minority sub-culture within soaring.

I've noticed a few pilots with high level skills that like to gamble with very long odds, for example, by placing critical bets about rapidly changing weather.

I expect that there are a few pilots with good credentials, but not very good skills, who like to gamble with very long odds.

So where am I on this matrix? I guess that we all take risks, some more skillfully than others, and that we all stay in the sport until our luck runs out.

On Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:34:52 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote

I'd like to think that that position is a minority sub-culture within soaring.



I've noticed a few pilots with high level skills that like to gamble with very long odds, for example, by placing critical bets about rapidly changing weather.



I expect that there are a few pilots with good credentials, but not very good skills, who like to gamble with very long odds.



So where am I on this matrix? I guess that we all take risks, some more skillfully than others, and that we all stay in the sport until our luck runs out.

Unfortunately I have to agree with Ventus_a. A lot depends on the club atmosphere and quality of instructors, but I see a lot of glider pilots who are perfectly happy staying at the skill level they acquired to pass their checkride, and making no attempt to progress any further. They are the "twirlybirds" that show up, fly a trainer for 1 hour on a booming day, then often leave before having to put all the club's gear away. Mention moving map software or FLARM to these guys, and all you get is a blank stare...

They don't think they are taking risks because they never stretch out - but in actuality they have stopped learning, and depending on how good their instruction was, may be the most dangerous pilots on the field!

But hey, as long as they pay their bills, it keeps the club going!

Kirk
66

Wow. When I said 'no way' for use as ab-initio, I was not implying it
couldn't be done, but was in no way suitable as an ab initio trainer for
intensive club use compared to other gliders available. I'm sure
Schempp-Hirth never intended it to be anyway.

We do about 4000-5000 lesson flights every year, on ASK-21s mostly. Compare
their landing speed, easy handling, forgiveness, low complexity and
durability against a Janus C (or for that sake, a Duo Discus, etc). An
ASK-21 leaves a lot more room for error for students (which you will need
sooner or later, also during first solos when there's no instructor in the
back). It will get them soloed sooner than a more complex glider, and give
them extra room to further find their way by experience.

Now, if you have one or two students a year, I can understand that given
properly qualified and experienced instructors, a Janus C may be used
safely for ab initio. Buying one especially for ab initio only would be a
no-way, I would say.

It's not about the complexity of the aircraft, it's entirely about the
quality of the instruction.

We do about 4000-5000 instructional flights a year, mostly on ASK-21's,
about half of that is ab initio, and we like to think that our standard of
instruction is pretty good. Our experience is that however well you train
students, they sooner or later still need just that little extra room for
error while honing their skills, especially when flying early solos. An
ASK-21 will give that room. A Janus C is a lot less likely to do so. Then
there's also the maintenance point of view: Schempp-Hirth just does not
stand up to the punishment and wear Schleicher can take.

It's not a question of being able to use a Janus C for ab initio. Sure you
can. But does that mean I would want to? No. Not when there's so much
better available.

Just my two cents.

Hi Eric

I understood that you weren't implying ab-initio training couldn't be done in a Janus.

Despite how my previous post may have been taken I wouldn't expect that a club would get good value for money from a Janus if they were to focus on ab-initio training in it. Yes I've known some people who have been trained successfully on the Janus but the intention of my posts was with regard to their use as an XC trainer. I think they are eminently suitable for that with the right instructors

In a club environment a more docile and forgiving machine like the K21 is a given for ab-initio as it also allows a wider range of instructor ability to be utilised

:-) Colin

Originally Posted by Eric Munk

Wow. When I said 'no way' for use as ab-initio, I was not implying it
couldn't be done, but was in no way suitable as an ab initio trainer for
intensive club use compared to other gliders available. I'm sure
Schempp-Hirth never intended it to be anyway.

We do about 4000-5000 lesson flights every year, on ASK-21s mostly. Compare
their landing speed, easy handling, forgiveness, low complexity and
durability against a Janus C (or for that sake, a Duo Discus, etc). An
ASK-21 leaves a lot more room for error for students (which you will need
sooner or later, also during first solos when there's no instructor in the
back). It will get them soloed sooner than a more complex glider, and give
them extra room to further find their way by experience.

Now, if you have one or two students a year, I can understand that given
properly qualified and experienced instructors, a Janus C may be used
safely for ab initio. Buying one especially for ab initio only would be a
no-way, I would say.

I have about 2oo hours in Janus A. I can't speak for other versions. All I can say is: It is perfectly safe, but it does not have pleasant handling qualities.

The ailerons are light and effective, the rudder heavy and takes an eternity and the elevator is super sensitive. Sometimes, the flying tail stalls while thermaling, making the nose pitch down. This can be alleviated by quickly relaxing back pressure and when you feel (you can feel it) the tail "unstalled", you then resume the stick position as before, otherwise you'll pick up speed quickly.

These characteristics are true at any flap setting. Thermals pretty well with positive flap and lands well too.

You just can not be ham fisted on the stick, it must be precise and quick, while horse kicking the rudder pedals.

Don't know why they installed the drogue shoot. With full flaps and spoilers it's pretty good already. I did land once on flaps 0. don't. It'll float forever.

Despite all this, I had a lot of fun with it.