It was really close...

We have restricted areas over our seat of government for very clear and
well-defined reasons, and every certificated pilot knows it

REALLY,,, seriously Jay. Do you really take the time to think about your
beliefs? Scenario: (God forbid!) Commercial Jumbo jet off from the airport
(look at a TAC of that area and see how close it is to the 'seat of
government') - capable of at least a few hundred knots and loaded with jet
fuel, momentum and sheer mass. Let's say that fighters are miraculously
scrambled soon enough and they shoot down the hijacked plane before it
reaches the capitol; a lethal rain of metal, jet fuel, and unfortunate
occupants on the thousands of people who live below (which would be over
one of the most densely populated urban areas in our country).

So, thousands of innocents will be sacrificed - families, children, mothers
and more? Sounds like a no-win scenario to me..sounds like a plan made out
of panic and paranoia.

I can't be the only one who winced with embarrassment and disgust to see the
video footage of all our elected leaders running like bloated, fat chickens
FROM A CESSNA 150 of all things! How those wicked terrorist groups must be
laughing heartily at us now. They really won - they succeeded in creating
paranoia and terror in their victim - one of the goals of terrorism!
It was just sickening, having our government's yellowed-belly showing to all
the world on their TV's.

Heck, look at Iraq right now,,, despite our presence we can't even begin to
stop the daily car bombings that are going on there. And our poor
recruits,,, 'making it' to the day their service is supposed to end and then
repeatedly being told that it is being extended (bad move for morale). At
least this is the last presidential term for G.W. Being grateful for small
favors!


Cecil

Jay Honeck wrote:
Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up.

************************************************ *******************************
Now they are willing to kill people who get lost and cross invisible
lines in the sky so that the powerful and the politically connected can
feel safe... Will they next start shooting our children because they
ride their bikes across an invisible line on the ground?


Denny, normally I'm right with you and your thoughts -- but this is an
absurd comparison.

We have restricted areas over our seat of government for very clear and
well-defined reasons, and every certificated pilot knows it. To compare
this situation to what the Nazis did is to trivialize the death of millions.
Jay,
You missed the point. If you don't stand up and defend all just causes
then there will be no just causes left to defend. Also, what is the
"clear and well-defined reason" for the FRZ. I got to talk to the F-16
pilots a few years ago and they aren't concerned about "you little guys"
because they knew "you can do anything anyway". The FRZ is window
dressing to make citizen feel safe. It does nothing.

I'm kind of tired of the Nazi card being continuously played by those
who disagree with the Patriot Act, George Bush and the government in
general. Read your history, what we have in the here and now in
this country bears no resemblance to Nazi Germany. Or, for Wilsonian
America from 1917-1919 during WWI. This Democrat President
implemented draconian policies and curbs on speech and liberty that
went far beyond anything the current Republican administration is
doing. Prison sentences of over 10 years were handed out for
publicly opposing the US entry into the war.

Not just the USA but the history of the human race has a record of
over-responding to threats or danger. Another Democrat put American
citizens of Japanese descent into concentration camps. The Chinese
kind of over did it on a wall. Lincoln suspended habeas corpus among
other things. Even the human body's immune system over reacts when
faced with invaders.

I'm not worried about school children crossing a line in a playground
and getting arrested for sedition. I'm more concerned about
clue-less pilots who either operate in a vacuum or are two
stupid/arrogant to check the airspace and plan accordingly. That kind
of behavior will trigger an over reaction to general aviation that
affects us all.

So stop telling me we have become Nazi Germany and that Bush is
Hitler. It does a real disservice to the millions who perished
opposing the real thing.

Alan Bloom
Dogs can Fly.
http://www.flyingmutts.com


On 13 May 2005 04:18:29 -0700, "Denny" wrote:

In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up
because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews. and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a
trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a
Protestant.

Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up.

************************************************* ******************************
Now they are willing to kill people who get lost and cross invisible
lines in the sky so that the powerful and the politically connected can
feel safe... Will they next start shooting our children because they
ride their bikes across an invisible line on the ground?

The Patriot Act, is not...

denny

Alan,

Read your history, what we have in the here and now in
this country bears no resemblance to Nazi Germany.


Not in all aspects by a long shot. But it is not every country that
starts a war of aggression...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Very well said,
Sometimes we only see the part of history we chose to see. Lincoln had
the entire Maryland State Legislature arrested and never charged with a
crime....just to keep them from voting for or against secession. Numerous
newspaper owner/editors were arrested because they expressed the thought
that the Constitution allowed for secession..as a few northestern states had
threathened many a time. I didn't agree with Lincoln throwing the
Constitution out of the window then, and I don't agree with doing it now
either.
Lincoln started a very bad trend of the Federal Government having all of
the power,...and to this day we are at the mercy of the Federal Government.
I'm pretty sure the founding fathers have been disgusted at us since 1861 .
We really would not need a Patriot Act, if the Federals would do there
number one job...protect the borders of this country. I will be the first to
admit during times of war, extra measures have to be taken....but I have not
seen a Declaration of War since Dec. 1941.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Alan" wrote in message
...

I'm kind of tired of the Nazi card being continuously played by those
who disagree with the Patriot Act, George Bush and the government in
general. Read your history, what we have in the here and now in
this country bears no resemblance to Nazi Germany. Or, for Wilsonian
America from 1917-1919 during WWI. This Democrat President
implemented draconian policies and curbs on speech and liberty that
went far beyond anything the current Republican administration is
doing. Prison sentences of over 10 years were handed out for
publicly opposing the US entry into the war.

Not just the USA but the history of the human race has a record of
over-responding to threats or danger. Another Democrat put American
citizens of Japanese descent into concentration camps. The Chinese
kind of over did it on a wall. Lincoln suspended habeas corpus among
other things. Even the human body's immune system over reacts when
faced with invaders.

I'm not worried about school children crossing a line in a playground
and getting arrested for sedition. I'm more concerned about
clue-less pilots who either operate in a vacuum or are two
stupid/arrogant to check the airspace and plan accordingly. That kind
of behavior will trigger an over reaction to general aviation that
affects us all.

So stop telling me we have become Nazi Germany and that Bush is
Hitler. It does a real disservice to the millions who perished
opposing the real thing.

Alan Bloom
Dogs can Fly.
http://www.flyingmutts.com

"Alan" wrote in message

Lincoln suspended habeas corpus among other things.

To be fair, he had constitutional justification...time of rebellion or
insurrection et al.

Even the human body's immune system over reacts when
faced with invaders.

Interesting analogy.

-c

On 5/13/05 4:18 AM, in article
, "Denny"
wrote:

In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up
because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews. and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a
trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a
Protestant.

Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up.


************************************************** ****************************
*
Now they are willing to kill people who get lost and cross invisible
lines in the sky so that the powerful and the politically connected can
feel safe... Will they next start shooting our children because they
ride their bikes across an invisible line on the ground?

The Patriot Act, is not...


Be reasonable. The prohibited area around the White House has been there for
decades. No one was talking about shooting these guys down because they had
violated the ADIZ or the restricted areas. They were inside the original
prohibited area and not responding in any way to signals or radio calls.
This has nothing to do with the Patriot Act or anything else that the
current administration has done. The Cessna flew right over the Vice
President's home. It flew between Congress and the White House. How clueless
is that? It has been illegal to fly there since the height of the Cold War.
Personally, I think the Secret Service showed considerable restraint.

And yes, if your children start riding their bikes toward certain
installations, do not respond to calls for them to stop and ignore warning
shots, it is possible that someone is going to shoot them. And you know
what? That has always been true in every country and every time since the
beginning of history. Children can be very effective as soldiers, spies,
assassins and saboteurs.


denny

Christopher,

I think the Secret Service showed considerable restraint.


Because the "collateral damage" of shooting the plane down would have
been way higher than any damage inflicted by the plane itself. Simple
as that.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On 13 May 2005 04:18:29 -0700, "Denny" wrote:

Now they are willing to kill people who get lost and cross invisible
lines in the sky so that the powerful and the politically connected can
feel safe... Will they next start shooting our children because they
ride their bikes across an invisible line on the ground?

The Patriot Act, is not...

denny


But yet we have very visible lines at our borders where people are
crossing them everyday in droves but we cant seem to stop them.

Scott D

To email remove spamcatcher's

"Denny" wrote in message
oups.com...
In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up
because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews. and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a
trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a
Protestant.

Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up.


************************************************** **************************
***
Now they are willing to kill people who get lost and cross invisible
lines in the sky so that the powerful and the politically connected can
feel safe... Will they next start shooting our children because they
ride their bikes across an invisible line on the ground?

Gee Denny, hindsight is sure 20/20.


The Patriot Act, is not...

Nice leap there.