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#11
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Stewart Kissel wrote:
So if a Start Point is declared....you can tow as high as you want with out penalty? And a declared finish point altitude is then subtracted from this? Not quite. You don't declare the elevation of the start and finish points, nor is the elevation of the ground underneath the points relevant. The start altitude for a declared start is the (pressure) altitude from the last fix recorded before you cross the start line or exit the start sector. The finish altitude for a declared finish is the (pressure) altitude from the first fix after you cross the finish line or enter the finish sector. So, if you cross the start line at an altitude of 3120 meters, you have to finish at 2120 meters or above to avoid the penalty. Marc |
#12
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Stewart Kissel wrote:
And if you use tow release as your start with no declared finish...can you land anywhere you please? Yes, but for a distance task you can do that in any case, even if you declared a finish. I also believe (but I'm not 100% certain, Judy can correct me on this), that you can declare a start point, fly the distance task without actually claiming the declared start, and get credit for the distance task based on an undeclared start at the point of release. Marc |
#13
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Ah, that was going to be my next question Mark. Can
you use the release point if you have a declared Start Point. I gotta see what Judy says on this. Would you not want to always have a declared finish...so you can get credit for altitude you have at the finish, rather then use the landing for the finish and lose that altitude for your calculation versus the start altitude? At 06:00 29 August 2004, Marc Ramsey wrote: Stewart Kissel wrote: And if you use tow release as your start with no declared finish...can you land anywhere you please? Yes, but for a distance task you can do that in any case, even if you declared a finish. I also believe (but I'm not 100% certain, Judy can correct me on this), that you can declare a start point, fly the distance task without actually claiming the declared start, and get credit for the distance task based on an undeclared start at the point of release. Marc |
#14
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Stewart Kissel wrote:
Would you not want to always have a declared finish...so you can get credit for altitude you have at the finish, rather then use the landing for the finish and lose that altitude for your calculation versus the start altitude? That's what I always do... Marc |
#15
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At 07:00 29 August 2004, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Stewart Kissel wrote: Would you not want to always have a declared finish...so you can get credit for altitude you have at the finish, rather then use the landing for the finish and lose that altitude for your calculation versus the start altitude? That's what I always do... Marc Ok, this helps clear up an issue that has been bugging me. I would be interested in anyone who could verify/comment on whether a tow release could be used for a start...If a Start Point had been declared. If this cannot occur, I see pluses and minuses for using either scenario. |
#16
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Eric Greenwell wrote:
What I think is a quirk in the rules lets a motorglider pilot effectively choose the end of the task by starting the motor, but the unpowered glider pilot must either declare an end point or use the landing point. I agree. Unfortunately it's not the only quirk in the Code Sportif, which has accumulated rules over rules for 50 years at least without wiping out *all* quirks that may have resulted from these changes (despite the good job that has be conducted by the SC3 specialist). It might be a good idea for the IGC bureau to launch a review of the Code Sportif as a whole, as they had for loggers (Bob, if you read me .... ;-) ) -- Denis R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!! Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ? |
#17
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Stewart Kissel wrote:
Ok, this helps clear up an issue that has been bugging me. I would be interested in anyone who could verify/comment on whether a tow release could be used for a start...If a Start Point had been declared. No, it cannot (except reverting to a *free record* performance) But you may use release altitude as your start altitude (for the 1000 m difference with the altitude at finish point) and pass within the declared start point observation zone later and higher (distance flights only, not allowed on speed tasks) -- Denis R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!! Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ? |
#18
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Gotcha...so u gotta use the Start Point if declared...but u can pick which altitude for the calculation(Release from tow, or Start Point elevation) But you may use release altitude as your start altitude (for the 1000 m difference with the altitude at finish point) and pass within the declared start point observation zone later and higher (distance flights only, not allowed on speed tasks) -- Denis R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!! Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ? |
#19
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Denis wrote:
Stewart Kissel wrote: Ok, this helps clear up an issue that has been bugging me. I would be interested in anyone who could verify/comment on whether a tow release could be used for a start...If a Start Point had been declared. No, it cannot (except reverting to a *free record* performance) SC3 1.4.5.b says that distance using up to three turnpoints is "A flight from a START POINT via up to three TURN POINTS to a FINISH POINT." Note that is says "a START POINT", not "the START POINT". SC3 1.1.8 says a START POINT is either "(a) The RELEASE POINT, or (b) A WAY POINT declared as a START POINT, or (c) The midpoint of a START LINE." Note that the pilot or data analyst can apparently choose between (b) and (c) after the flight, as I've never seen a declaration form (paper or electronic) that requires that you declare before the flight that you are using a start line as opposed to a start way point (with OZ). Being a computer programmer, I'd argue that the "or" in clause (a) has the same logical precedence as the "or" in clause (b). Therefore, if you have declared a start, it still seems to me that it would be valid to use any of the START POINT options, including the RELEASE POINT. Have you found a rule someplace else that would render this interpretation incorrect? Marc |
#20
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Marc,
I can verify that this interpretation is correct. In 1999, I used this interpretation and received my 1000km. It was not easy to obtain with this interpretation and it took many months of perseverance. I believe I was the first to do this and I don't think they were happy about my insistence on this literal interpretation of the rule. It would be interesting to know if anyone else has successfully used it. I took off at Ridge Soaring with Altoona declared as a start and finish. Three turnpoints were declared between and then landed at Ridge Soaring. I got in wave on my way to Altoona and decided to fly down to Cumberland for fun before I started. I was in wave when I started at Altoona. I was able to use my tow release as my start altitude and my finish altitude at Altoona for the 1000m calculation. Dale Kramer K1 Marc Ramsey wrote in message . com... Denis wrote: Stewart Kissel wrote: Ok, this helps clear up an issue that has been bugging me. I would be interested in anyone who could verify/comment on whether a tow release could be used for a start...If a Start Point had been declared. No, it cannot (except reverting to a *free record* performance) SC3 1.4.5.b says that distance using up to three turnpoints is "A flight from a START POINT via up to three TURN POINTS to a FINISH POINT." Note that is says "a START POINT", not "the START POINT". SC3 1.1.8 says a START POINT is either "(a) The RELEASE POINT, or (b) A WAY POINT declared as a START POINT, or (c) The midpoint of a START LINE." Note that the pilot or data analyst can apparently choose between (b) and (c) after the flight, as I've never seen a declaration form (paper or electronic) that requires that you declare before the flight that you are using a start line as opposed to a start way point (with OZ). Being a computer programmer, I'd argue that the "or" in clause (a) has the same logical precedence as the "or" in clause (b). Therefore, if you have declared a start, it still seems to me that it would be valid to use any of the START POINT options, including the RELEASE POINT. Have you found a rule someplace else that would render this interpretation incorrect? Marc |
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