SSA Contest Rules and Waiver for Nationals Now Posted

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 8:00:05 PM UTC-8, Phil Chidekel wrote:
Thanks for the support, Tony.

Fortunately, all the D2/LS-8/ASW-28 pilots are offering big money for my glider—nothing says performance like 17 meters.

I disagree. NOTHING says performance like 26.5 meters!

I’ve started using the Condor soaring sim and if anyone wants to see what flying in cloud is like, try it there. Especially on an alpine map!

So....just to summarize, the lack of an attitude indicator is going to stop people hell bent on winning at all costs....from flying into clouds?

If only there were some other way for the scorer's to tell if somebody was circling in cloud and purposely braking the rules...and yet still leave the competitors with a horizon for emergencies.
What if we mandated everyone carry a GPS recorder and take a look at the traces at the end of the day?

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 4:59:30 PM UTC+13, wrote:

What if we mandated everyone carry a GPS recorder and take a look at the traces at the end of the day?

That's the solution we have, and cloud flying is happening. See JWGC2019 & EGC2019.

That's the solution we have, and cloud flying is happening. See JWGC2019 & EGC2019.
I was being scarcastic. If cheating is known and nothing is being done the problem is not with the rules, it's in contest management.

On Tuesday, March 3, 2020 at 11:02:57 PM UTC-5, wrote:

That's the solution we have, and cloud flying is happening. See JWGC2019 & EGC2019.

I did not follow those contests at all.

Let me guess: before the unlimited altitude start, right?

Employ stupid rules, get stupid results.

If there's any evidence or allegation of cloud flying on course, please point me to it. Reply to author is fine if you'd like to keep this private for some reason.

T8

More quick thoughts:

1) Competitions involve a lot of packs and gaggle flying. In this setting, it seems that repeat offenders will eventually be reported to the contest director. Although cloud flying "can" happen, I can't imagine that it will ever become a terribly common problem in our sport. It seems to be a more likely problem with lone record flights (no witnesses!). I don't believe that AHRS is banned from cockpits during state, regional, or national record flights. It seems strange to ban it when witnesses are likely, but allow it at other times.

2) IGC files can be flagged for suspicious behavior and this would be relatively easy to automate. For example, it would be suspicious when a particular pilot climbs significantly higher than the rest of the fleet on multiple occassions. While this wouldn't be difinitive proof of cloud flying, it would likely deter some from cheating. At the very lease, a suspicious flight could result in a stearn warning from the contest director. In other cases, it could be combined with other evidence to take firmer action.

3) Just as our criminal system maintains criminal records, maybe the SSA needs to maintain a formal database of contest violations. Maybe they already do this? This would seem to be another great deterrant.

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 2:07:36 PM UTC-8, wrote:
More quick thoughts:

1) Competitions involve a lot of packs and gaggle flying. In this setting, it seems that repeat offenders will eventually be reported to the contest director. Although cloud flying "can" happen, I can't imagine that it will ever become a terribly common problem in our sport. It seems to be a more likely problem with lone record flights (no witnesses!). I don't believe that AHRS is banned from cockpits during state, regional, or national record flights. It seems strange to ban it when witnesses are likely, but allow it at other times.

2) IGC files can be flagged for suspicious behavior and this would be relatively easy to automate. For example, it would be suspicious when a particular pilot climbs significantly higher than the rest of the fleet on multiple occassions. While this wouldn't be difinitive proof of cloud flying, it would likely deter some from cheating. At the very lease, a suspicious flight could result in a stearn warning from the contest director. In other cases, it could be combined with other evidence to take firmer action.

3) Just as our criminal system maintains criminal records, maybe the SSA needs to maintain a formal database of contest violations. Maybe they already do this? This would seem to be another great deterrant.

There are many views (including on the Rules Committee - where this is a regular discussion topic) on the subject of permitting ARHS in contests, particularly as relates to:

1) Whether it is a safety feature that might save a pilot's life or glider OR a temptation that increases risky behavior,
2) The enforceability of a ban and the burden on contest personnel,
3) The degree to which cloud flying does or doesn't happen - or is beneficial under various rule regimes.

One thought that has occurred to me is a crowd-sourced approach: Photos taken with mobile phones are typically time and geo-tagged. This could be used in conjunction with the photographer's IGC file - and those of other contestants to positively ID a glider photographed flying in the wispies - even if the contest ID isn't readable. Imagine violations had the same penalty as busting airspace.

Just a thought. If I were CD and was presented with photographic and IGC evidence of a contestant busting FARs I'm pretty sure I know what I'd do.

Andy Blackburn
9B

When we find ourselves resorting to taking photos of fellow competitors flying in the cloud shreds to catch them busting a FAR, that sounds like we may be trending into a “nanny state� situation. Is this aspect worth all the effort to police?

I’m not worried about the guy skimming the whispies, however I think I would be interested in someone who is purposely entering a Cu and working it internally to get a few thousand more feet. Even in that situation, I don’t think I would even bother reporting it to officials. If some guy has to break the rules to get his points, thats his business. He’s a cheater, he knows it, I know it, and so do others. And I will definitely spread the word and evidence amongst my fellow competitors, just so all know what a fraud that guy is,.

Dan