Some bad controllers

"Peter R." wrote in message
...

If only all controllers provided this exemplary service. One time last
summer, I overheard two different GA aircraft within a few minutes of
each other attempt to pick up their IFR clearances while in the air inside
Philadelphia Approach's airspace.

The controller, after hearing the second request, asked what is going on
here, then proceeded to lecture all listening that IFR aircraft should be
contacting flight service for clearances when in the air.

The controller then answered the second aircraft and told him to do just
that, then returned to servicing all other aircraft under his control.


Were they trying to file and pick up clearances directly with ATC, or were
they trying to pick up an IFR clearance on a flight plan they had previously
filed with FSS?

If they were attempting the latter, the controller's actions make absolutely
no sense. It's easier for him to issue the clearance directly than it is to
do it through FSS.

Steven P. McNicoll ) wrote:

Were they trying to file and pick up clearances directly with ATC, or were
they trying to pick up an IFR clearance on a flight plan they had previously
filed with FSS?

The latter.

If they were attempting the latter, the controller's actions make absolutely
no sense. It's easier for him to issue the clearance directly than it is to
do it through FSS.

That's what my relatively IFR-inexperienced mind was thinking at the time.

--
Peter












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"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

What ATC and/or pilot
action toggles the action to closure?


Pilot: Lands.

ATC: Observes pilot land.

That's it. Flight plan is now closed.

Here's where I, and I suspect many others, have the hole in our
understanding. Isn't the flight plan in some FAA computers somewhere? And
doesn't some record need to be deleted? Maybe the plan will eventually
evaporate if no more action is taken? Surely it can't be deleted just
because Approach handed off to Tower - the pilot may need to fly a missed.

-- David Brooks

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

Does the ATC controller then intiate SAR if the pilot hasn't called in
within 30 minutes or so? I'm real nervous now if you are telling me
that it is up to the last controller to initiate SAR if a flight plan
isn't closed by the pilot. I always assumed some computer somewhere
kept track of open flight plans and automatically kicked something out
if one was still open at some time past the ETA.

Seems nuts to be that something as critical as SAR initiation for an
overdue airplane wouldn't be automated when it is so easy to do so.
These are the things computers do best.



There are formal procedures for overdue aircraft, but they are initiated by
humans, not computers. Usually, if an aircraft fails to cancel, they are
found before those procedures become necessary. A phone call to the FBO
works pretty well, for example.



You are telling me that a controller never gets busy and forgets that
the pilot who landed at Podunk Regional on an IFR flight plan never
called to cancel his flight plan? This seems like a serious flaw in the
ATC system.


Matt

Newps wrote:


Matthew S. Whiting wrote:

Does the ATC controller then intiate SAR if the pilot hasn't called in
within 30 minutes or so?


You are never out of contact with ATC, how could this be a factor.

There are lots of airports here in northern PA where you can't talk to
the controller on the ground after landing.


I'm real nervous now if you are telling me

that it is up to the last controller to initiate SAR if a flight plan
isn't closed by the pilot.


You are flying to East Podunk towered airport, talking to the center.
You call the airport in sight and the center controller clears you for
the visual or you are given a regular approach. At about 10 miles out
the center tells you to cantact the tower. The tower already knows you
are coming. Now, what is there to worry about?

The two airports I landed at most frequently after IFR flights are N38
and 7N1. Neither have control towers, nor even a human around much of
the time.


I always assumed some computer somewhere

kept track of open flight plans and automatically kicked something out
if one was still open at some time past the ETA.


Not for IFR, just VFR.

Interesting that a VFR flight plan is more automated than an IFR flight
plan.


Seems nuts to be that something as critical as SAR initiation for an
overdue airplane wouldn't be automated when it is so easy to do so.
These are the things computers do best.


ATC is talking to you at all times. That is much better than a computer
keeping track of you.

Not always, see above. If you are flying into a towered airport, this
is true. Not all IFR flights end at towered airports. I typically
cancelled in the air when flying into N38 or 7N1, however, if the
weather was marginal or if the runway condition was unknown (winter), I
didn't want to cancel until I was on the ground. This required a phone
call. You are saying that if I didn't make this phone call and the last
controller I talked with forgot about me, I could be laying in a ditch
in the snow for hours???


Matt

You are telling me that a controller never gets busy and forgets that
the pilot who landed at Podunk Regional on an IFR flight plan never
called to cancel his flight plan? This seems like a serious flaw in the
ATC system.


Remember that ATC has the airspace at Podunk tied up until the (IFR) flight
plan is cancelled. It's on his mind.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Teacherjh wrote:
You are telling me that a controller never gets busy and forgets that
the pilot who landed at Podunk Regional on an IFR flight plan never
called to cancel his flight plan? This seems like a serious flaw in the
ATC system.


Remember that ATC has the airspace at Podunk tied up until the (IFR) flight
plan is cancelled. It's on his mind.

Jose


That's true, but there's still room for error here that could easily be
automated into oblivion. Just seems odd to me that this wouldn't be
done, especially since it apparently already exists for VFR flight plans.


Matt

"David Brooks" wrote in message
...

Here's where I, and I suspect many others, have the hole in our
understanding. Isn't the flight plan in some FAA computers somewhere?


It may be, or it may have already timed out.



And doesn't some record need to be deleted?


No, it doesn't need to be deleted. If it's still in the computer it will
time out shortly. Remember, you've reached the destination airport. You're
at the end of the line. There's nobody to relay any information to.



Maybe the plan will eventually evaporate if no more action is taken?


'Zackly.



Surely it can't be deleted just because Approach handed off to
Tower - the pilot may need to fly a missed.


Which will require manual coordination whether or not the flight plan is
still in the system.

And don't call me Shirley.

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

You are telling me that a controller never gets busy and forgets that
the pilot who landed at Podunk Regional on an IFR flight plan never
called to cancel his flight plan?


No, I'm not telling you that. I mentioned that situation in the message you
just responded to. Perhaps you should actually read it before responding.



This seems like a serious flaw in the ATC system.


Well, it's not.

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

That's true, but there's still room for error here that could easily be
automated into oblivion.


What's the error there's room for and how would you automate it into
oblivion?