ELT's

Todd,

I looked at the APRS system several years ago. It would provide coverage
when flying in the Boise region. However, the coverage is minimal to none
existent over the mountains of Central Idaho (Mackay, King Mountain Glider
Park, etc.) and bordering region of Montana.

H Wayne Paul
W7ADK (I've had my amateur radio license for a LONG time.)


"Todd" wrote in message
...

And if you have an Amateur Radio License there is the APRS tracking
option.

Here is a flight in Colorado (where you might think the coverage may
not be good) for this summer:

http://aprs.fi/?call=N8RNW-6&dt=1311...timerange=3600

A device like this: http://www.byonics.com/mt-rtg is easy to stick
in the glider

More information available at: http://www.aprs.org

And if you do not have an Amateur Radio License, get one. It is not
that hard. There are networks of linked repeaters that will give you
radio contact to your crew over distances that your aircraft radio
wont.

Please look at my website page:
http://www.wingsandwheels.com/elt_em...plb_person.htm
there is a new unit from Kannad that has not only internal GPS but also
includes and internal 406 Mhz antenna. You will note that they originally
had suggested this could be mounted without any external antenna but the FAA
frowned on this and they now include a note regarding this "an external
antenna must be mounted when "mandated".essentially though, an ELT is not
"mandated" for gliders and in fact there is an exception to the ELT
requirement for gliders. With that being said, this ELT can legally be
installed in a glider without the external antenna.....I have spoken
directly with our technical contact at Kannad and he stated that the ELT
performs as well with the internal antenna as with the external antenna as
long as the ELT has an unblocked view (meaning not covered by metal, carbon
fiber or materials that would otherwise block the antenna signal. The other
exception to this is that the Integra ELT does not transmit the 121.5 Mhz
signal without the external antenna. It will Tx on 121.5 however with the
"portable" antenna used like most handheld devices so this could also be
easily implemented.

I have in the past installed the previous model 121.4/243 ELT's in my own
gliders with simple rubber duck handheld antennas since they too were 1/4
wave and typical for the airband (118-136 Mhz) and mounted these on smaller
ground planes..Understandably even the short rubber duck antenna is in
actuality a 22-23" antenna but coiled so it in all perfection should have a
ground plane that would be undoable in nearly any glider (being nearly 22"
radius) but even a small ground plane is more effective and though a
compromise of the "ideal" works....I have tested my own and found then
working and sending a signal that I believe could be received by S&R.

The big advantage to the aircraft ELT over Spot's and PLB's is that they are
activated on impact and have internal batteries capable of sending the
signal for several hours even days and I know we've all heard the arguments
that ELT's don't work....but the fact of the matter is that they do and even
in soaring we have had ELT's that have helpd to find downed gliders.. should
ELT's be mandatory in gliders, in contest? or? ? I'll let the rest of you
argue and debate this and leave requiring ELTs, PLB's Spot's, Flarm, TCAS
and the rest up the individual pilots to decide.
regards
Tim Mara


"Dick" wrote in message
...
A couple of years ago there was talk of denying entry in to contests
all gliders that were not equipped with ELT's. I immediatly ordered a
121.5 / 406 Mhz model. It came the other day, a year and a half
later. It includes a clunky antenna that would have to be mounted
outside of a carbon hull. I have two questions. One, what happened
to the urgency??? and two has anyone come up with a workable solution
to the antenna issue?

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I would not want to recommend any of these installations as shown as
examples of "how to do it", all of the installations proposed were highly
suspect...in any antenna installation you'd want to keep the antenna's from
paralleling other antenna's, metal posts or objects as they will interfere
with the radiation pattern and even can bounce signals back and forth
creating distortion.you also need to look at the antenna mast and the
direction that you are hoping to transmit to, typically the mast would want
to be vertical to send the signal in a more horizontal direction,
particularly for communications being that we don't know in the case of an
ELT what might and might not be vertical .....again looking for
ideal....even that said, some signal can get out even with a damaged or
missing antenna but greatly reduced..In a conversation with Ameri-King
(claimed) they claimed to have tested their ELT for certification with no
antenna attached...but I might find this to be suspect.
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com


"Paul Remde" wrote in message
...
Hi Dick,

ELTs are still great safety devices.

Most contests probably won't require them - requiring SPOT units instead.

One workable internal antenna mounting solution is shown he
http://www.archive.jimphoenix.com/ar...Nfuselage.html
Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.



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Mmmm thanks Tim, that Kannad antenna systems is quite appealing for
somebody who really wants a 406 Mhz ELT. This may be by far the best ELT
approach, say mount it under the fiberglass RF area of a turtledeck (an
area that likely survives impact well).

Just be aware that many SAR organizations may still attempt to do final
homing on the 121.5 MHz beacon all these systems also carry and so
having a way to connect the 121.5 MHz antenna (if you are able to after
landing/crashing) is important. The 406 MHz patch antenna is unlikely to
provide a good radial pattern for ground based homing on 405 MHz.

I think we'll disagree on how reliable ELTs activations are - at least
one benefit of a Kannad system is that mounted like above or in front of
the spars under the turledeck and aligned along the gliders axis
properly etc. is likely a better install location than other places
where these ELTs end up misaligned and have likely lower probability of
proper activation.

The problem with rubber ducky antennas with 405 MHz ELTs is having a
single antenna that handles 406 MHz and 121.5 MHz signals.


Darryl

On 8/24/11 1:54 PM, Tim Mara wrote:
Please look at my website page:
http://www.wingsandwheels.com/elt_em...plb_person.htm
there is a new unit from Kannad that has not only internal GPS but also
includes and internal 406 Mhz antenna. You will note that they originally
had suggested this could be mounted without any external antenna but the FAA
frowned on this and they now include a note regarding this "an external
antenna must be mounted when "mandated".essentially though, an ELT is not
"mandated" for gliders and in fact there is an exception to the ELT
requirement for gliders. With that being said, this ELT can legally be
installed in a glider without the external antenna.....I have spoken
directly with our technical contact at Kannad and he stated that the ELT
performs as well with the internal antenna as with the external antenna as
long as the ELT has an unblocked view (meaning not covered by metal, carbon
fiber or materials that would otherwise block the antenna signal. The other
exception to this is that the Integra ELT does not transmit the 121.5 Mhz
signal without the external antenna. It will Tx on 121.5 however with the
"portable" antenna used like most handheld devices so this could also be
easily implemented.

I have in the past installed the previous model 121.4/243 ELT's in my own
gliders with simple rubber duck handheld antennas since they too were 1/4
wave and typical for the airband (118-136 Mhz) and mounted these on smaller
ground planes..Understandably even the short rubber duck antenna is in
actuality a 22-23" antenna but coiled so it in all perfection should have a
ground plane that would be undoable in nearly any glider (being nearly 22"
radius) but even a small ground plane is more effective and though a
compromise of the "ideal" works....I have tested my own and found then
working and sending a signal that I believe could be received by S&R.

The big advantage to the aircraft ELT over Spot's and PLB's is that they are
activated on impact and have internal batteries capable of sending the
signal for several hours even days and I know we've all heard the arguments
that ELT's don't work....but the fact of the matter is that they do and even
in soaring we have had ELT's that have helpd to find downed gliders.. should
ELT's be mandatory in gliders, in contest? or? ? I'll let the rest of you
argue and debate this and leave requiring ELTs, PLB's Spot's, Flarm, TCAS
and the rest up the individual pilots to decide.
regards
Tim Mara


wrote in message
...
A couple of years ago there was talk of denying entry in to contests
all gliders that were not equipped with ELT's. I immediatly ordered a
121.5 / 406 Mhz model. It came the other day, a year and a half
later. It includes a clunky antenna that would have to be mounted
outside of a carbon hull. I have two questions. One, what happened
to the urgency??? and two has anyone come up with a workable solution
to the antenna issue?

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature database 6407 (20110824) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com






__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6407 (20110824) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

In my own installations and the ones I illustrated on my website with the
rubber duck antenna's these were of course done with the 121.5/243.0 ELT's
not with 406 Mhz....
granted, few S&R teams have capability to even search the 406 frequency
signals and do rely on the stand-by 121.5 Mhz ....the new 406 ELT's
typically will no longer have 243.0Mhz but retain 121.5.again, you have to
have an external antenna or portable antenna to Tx on this
frequency.....Kannad does have an optional antenna for portable use and it
is possible that other rubber duck antenna could also be mounted to the unit
for 121.5 but Kannad warns that an improper antenna used here can also harm
the ELT...I'd need to get more clarification as to why and how but at least
their own portable antenna option remains as possible choice.
best regards
Tim Mara
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"Darryl Ramm" wrote in message
...


Mmmm thanks Tim, that Kannad antenna systems is quite appealing for
somebody who really wants a 406 Mhz ELT. This may be by far the best ELT
approach, say mount it under the fiberglass RF area of a turtledeck (an
area that likely survives impact well).

Just be aware that many SAR organizations may still attempt to do final
homing on the 121.5 MHz beacon all these systems also carry and so having
a way to connect the 121.5 MHz antenna (if you are able to after
landing/crashing) is important. The 406 MHz patch antenna is unlikely to
provide a good radial pattern for ground based homing on 405 MHz.

I think we'll disagree on how reliable ELTs activations are - at least one
benefit of a Kannad system is that mounted like above or in front of the
spars under the turledeck and aligned along the gliders axis properly etc.
is likely a better install location than other places where these ELTs end
up misaligned and have likely lower probability of proper activation.

The problem with rubber ducky antennas with 405 MHz ELTs is having a
single antenna that handles 406 MHz and 121.5 MHz signals.


Darryl

On 8/24/11 1:54 PM, Tim Mara wrote:
Please look at my website page:
http://www.wingsandwheels.com/elt_em...plb_person.htm
there is a new unit from Kannad that has not only internal GPS but also
includes and internal 406 Mhz antenna. You will note that they originally
had suggested this could be mounted without any external antenna but the
FAA
frowned on this and they now include a note regarding this "an external
antenna must be mounted when "mandated".essentially though, an ELT is not
"mandated" for gliders and in fact there is an exception to the ELT
requirement for gliders. With that being said, this ELT can legally be
installed in a glider without the external antenna.....I have spoken
directly with our technical contact at Kannad and he stated that the ELT
performs as well with the internal antenna as with the external antenna
as
long as the ELT has an unblocked view (meaning not covered by metal,
carbon
fiber or materials that would otherwise block the antenna signal. The
other
exception to this is that the Integra ELT does not transmit the 121.5 Mhz
signal without the external antenna. It will Tx on 121.5 however with the
"portable" antenna used like most handheld devices so this could also be
easily implemented.

I have in the past installed the previous model 121.4/243 ELT's in my own
gliders with simple rubber duck handheld antennas since they too were 1/4
wave and typical for the airband (118-136 Mhz) and mounted these on
smaller
ground planes..Understandably even the short rubber duck antenna is in
actuality a 22-23" antenna but coiled so it in all perfection should have
a
ground plane that would be undoable in nearly any glider (being nearly
22"
radius) but even a small ground plane is more effective and though a
compromise of the "ideal" works....I have tested my own and found then
working and sending a signal that I believe could be received by S&R.

The big advantage to the aircraft ELT over Spot's and PLB's is that they
are
activated on impact and have internal batteries capable of sending the
signal for several hours even days and I know we've all heard the
arguments
that ELT's don't work....but the fact of the matter is that they do and
even
in soaring we have had ELT's that have helpd to find downed gliders..
should
ELT's be mandatory in gliders, in contest? or? ? I'll let the rest of you
argue and debate this and leave requiring ELTs, PLB's Spot's, Flarm,
TCAS
and the rest up the individual pilots to decide.
regards
Tim Mara


wrote in message
...
A couple of years ago there was talk of denying entry in to contests
all gliders that were not equipped with ELT's. I immediatly ordered a
121.5 / 406 Mhz model. It came the other day, a year and a half
later. It includes a clunky antenna that would have to be mounted
outside of a carbon hull. I have two questions. One, what happened
to the urgency??? and two has anyone come up with a workable solution
to the antenna issue?

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature database 6407 (20110824) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com






__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature database 6407 (20110824) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com






__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature database 6410 (20110825) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com






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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 16:03:46 -0700 (PDT), Bob Kuykendall
wrote:


In a word, Spot.

the big disadvantage of the Spot device is, if I understand correctly,
that it sends out a position message every 10 minutes.
It may well happen that a message doesn't pass through the satellite
system, so the distance between fixes may reach 20 (or more) minutes.

Now, at the the speed we fly in contest, 10mins equal somewhere
between 10 and 30 km. Add to this the unpredictable deviations from
course, and I believe you get just an indication for a search circle
about 30km in radius. In rough terrain, that's quite a huge area.

My first choice is to have an ELT, and possibly add tracking
functions via a GPS-Smartphone (feat. ReliRescue or similar softwares)
or a Spot.

When many sailplanes share a competition area, Flarm traces have
proved to be extremely valuable in reconstructing a missing glider's
path. Another reason for promoting Flarm usage.

aldo cernezzi

(BTW: I've been at a contest where we all were grounded for 3
consecutive days, trying to help, driving and hiking around in the
mountains, until the rests were found. The pain for the family was
never ending. Please don't let this agony repeat itself)

On Aug 23, 6:36*pm, Dick wrote:
A couple of years ago there was talk of denying entry in to contests
all gliders that were not equipped with ELT's. *I immediatly ordered a
121.5 / 406 Mhz model. *It came the other day, a year and a half
later. *It includes a clunky antenna that would have to be mounted
outside of a carbon hull. *I have two questions. *One, what happened
to the urgency??? *and two has anyone come up with a workable solution
to the antenna issue?

US contest rules permit the contest organizer to require ELT's or
other safety device as thety see fit.The initiative, authored by
myself, to make ELT's mandatory was never implemented as pilots did
not think theyshould be mandatory.
Personally, I have an impact actuated ELT, a 406 PLB, and a SPOT,
acquired in that order.
I'm confident that, with those implemented, I will be found.
None are perfect.
ELT's are negatively affected by installation and antenna issues.
PLB's require concious person to activate.
Spot has to see the sky.
Today from scratch, I would do Spot, and add impact activated 406 when
I felt I could afford it,
My decisions are based on my hope that my going missing will end
quickly to minimize the effect on my wife and family.
FWIW
UH
UH