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#1
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"Refusing to Handle You"
So, an interesting thing happened today. I am at a fly-in at Hagerstown and about to head back to my home-base at York (THV). I can see from the PC they had there that there is a line of heavy rain and possibly thunderstorms blocking my route back. There is no way around it to the north, but there is a way to the south. So, instead of the usual KHGR-SCAPE-THV to take me north of Camp David, I file a route via HGR-MRB-EMI to so south and get in to York through the back door. When I pick up my clearance, I am given the route via SCAPE, but I "unable" that for weather, and they go away for a few minutes, and then clear me as filed. I take off, and everything is fine, until I'm headed southbound from the HGR VOR, when the Washington Center controller calls me and says "Err, 8096J, Potomac Approach is refusing to handle you, say intentions." So now, here I am, in the air with two small kids on board, and being turned back towards what was, a while back at least, some nasty weather. I ask for a hold at HGR to consider my options, and luckily, by now the StormScope is showing the line has dissipated. Now, I'm not happy, 'cos I know there's been cells appearing along that route all PM, but I have little choice, so I take the SCAPE route. All ends well, and we have an almost smooth ride, but I was amazed that they gave me a clearance for that route, and then wouldn't honor it! Comments??? |
#2
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"Mike Granby" wrote in message ups.com... So, an interesting thing happened today. I am at a fly-in at Hagerstown and about to head back to my home-base at York (THV). I can see from the PC they had there that there is a line of heavy rain and possibly thunderstorms blocking my route back. There is no way around it to the north, but there is a way to the south. So, instead of the usual KHGR-SCAPE-THV to take me north of Camp David, I file a route via HGR-MRB-EMI to so south and get in to York through the back door. When I pick up my clearance, I am given the route via SCAPE, but I "unable" that for weather, and they go away for a few minutes, and then clear me as filed. I take off, and everything is fine, until I'm headed southbound from the HGR VOR, when the Washington Center controller calls me and says "Err, 8096J, Potomac Approach is refusing to handle you, say intentions." So now, here I am, in the air with two small kids on board, and being turned back towards what was, a while back at least, some nasty weather. I ask for a hold at HGR to consider my options, and luckily, by now the StormScope is showing the line has dissipated. Now, I'm not happy, 'cos I know there's been cells appearing along that route all PM, but I have little choice, so I take the SCAPE route. All ends well, and we have an almost smooth ride, but I was amazed that they gave me a clearance for that route, and then wouldn't honor it! Comments??? Some TRACONs simply do not handle thruflights, that may be the case here. One way around that is to make a stop at a field within that TRACON's airspace. Then you're not a thruflight, you're an arrival and a departure. |
#3
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One way around that is to make a stop at a field within that TRACON's airspace. I know someone who pulled this trick on NYC TRACON once, but he even had the nerve to call them as he neared the airport he'd file to, and ask to change his destination to where he really want to go! Apparently, there was much sighing from the controller, but in the end, the pilot got what he wanted. |
#4
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Back before I retired from Tower Air, we used to do something similar
quite frequently. I was on the B747-200 and a route which I did quite frequently was JFK to LLBG (Ben Gurion; Tel Aviv, Israel). Due to range constraints on the -200, we would not be able to legally file LLBG as our destination, due to inadequate fuel reserves. Due to this, we would file for LGAV (Athens, Greece) out of JFK, and approximately 500 NM from LGAV, if the weather was good at LLBG, and we had the fuel to do it, we would refile for LLBG. If the weather or fuel situation was not good, we would land at LGAV, and fuel up then continue on to LLBG. In the many years that I did this, Eurocontrol never once gave me any trouble about it. It's a perfectly legitimate way to go about your business while in the IFR system. Lynne |
#5
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Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Mike Granby" wrote in message ups.com... So, an interesting thing happened today. I am at a fly-in at Hagerstown and about to head back to my home-base at York (THV). I can see from the PC they had there that there is a line of heavy rain and possibly thunderstorms blocking my route back. There is no way around it to the north, but there is a way to the south. So, instead of the usual KHGR-SCAPE-THV to take me north of Camp David, I file a route via HGR-MRB-EMI to so south and get in to York through the back door. When I pick up my clearance, I am given the route via SCAPE, but I "unable" that for weather, and they go away for a few minutes, and then clear me as filed. I take off, and everything is fine, until I'm headed southbound from the HGR VOR, when the Washington Center controller calls me and says "Err, 8096J, Potomac Approach is refusing to handle you, say intentions." So now, here I am, in the air with two small kids on board, and being turned back towards what was, a while back at least, some nasty weather. I ask for a hold at HGR to consider my options, and luckily, by now the StormScope is showing the line has dissipated. Now, I'm not happy, 'cos I know there's been cells appearing along that route all PM, but I have little choice, so I take the SCAPE route. All ends well, and we have an almost smooth ride, but I was amazed that they gave me a clearance for that route, and then wouldn't honor it! Comments??? Some TRACONs simply do not handle thruflights, that may be the case here. One way around that is to make a stop at a field within that TRACON's airspace. Then you're not a thruflight, you're an arrival and a departure. Shouldn't that be taken into consideration by ATC prior to issuance of the clearance? Matt |
#6
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"Matt Whiting" wrote in message ... Shouldn't that be taken into consideration by ATC prior to issuance of the clearance? They probably did. Remember, they initially issued a different route which was declined due to weather. Perhaps they then issued the route through the TRACON hoping they could sell it to approach. |
#7
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Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message ... Shouldn't that be taken into consideration by ATC prior to issuance of the clearance? They probably did. Remember, they initially issued a different route which was declined due to weather. Perhaps they then issued the route through the TRACON hoping they could sell it to approach. OK. I always figured that the route was "pre sold" end to end before being issued. I've gotten partial route clearances before and assumed that was what happened when they couldn't get the entire route approved. I'd have never guessed that getting a full route clearance left open this sort of possibility. That seems bizarre to me. Matt |
#8
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Matt Whiting wrote:
OK. I always figured that the route was "pre sold" end to end before being issued. I've gotten partial route clearances before and assumed that was what happened when they couldn't get the entire route approved. I'd have never guessed that getting a full route clearance left open this sort of possibility. That seems bizarre to me. Are you saying you've never gotten a reroute in flight? |
#9
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"Matt Whiting" wrote in message ... OK. I always figured that the route was "pre sold" end to end before being issued. I've gotten partial route clearances before and assumed that was what happened when they couldn't get the entire route approved. I'd have never guessed that getting a full route clearance left open this sort of possibility. That seems bizarre to me. "Pre-selling" your clearance end-to-end before issuing it would create a pretty inflexible system, one that could handle only a fraction of the traffic it does now. What if a thunderstorm cell popped up on your route. You'd probably like to deviate around it. So you ask ATC to deviate 20 degrees left of course and the response is, "Unable, that will put you into airspace that has been pre-sold to another IFR flight." I don't think you'd be happy with that response. |
#10
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Steve do they still use PDR, PDAR, and PARs?.
Al "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message ink.net... "Matt Whiting" wrote in message ... Shouldn't that be taken into consideration by ATC prior to issuance of the clearance? They probably did. Remember, they initially issued a different route which was declined due to weather. Perhaps they then issued the route through the TRACON hoping they could sell it to approach. |
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