Butterfly external display questions

On Sep 12, 10:07*am, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 3:19:30 PM UTC-5, Andy wrote:
I received a Butterfly external display with my US PowerFLARM core (brick). I also ordered a PowerFLARM Portable so have been able to compare the two. The alerter volume of my Butterfly external display is much lower than the alerter volume on my portable, even when the Butterfly is a maximum and the portable is at reduced level. My Butterfly external display also has light leaks along the entire top and bottom edges. These show up as light bars that are significantly brigher than the display itself. The portable display has no visible light leaks. I contacted Butterfly and asked for comment as I did not wish to approach my dealer until I know whether these characteristics were typical of all production displays. Butterfly declined to answer my questions and forwarded my enquiry to Lee Kuhlke of FLARM USA. It seems that Butterfly is taking no responsibility for displays that were exported to USA. Lee has so far declined to provide any answer. So, if you have a Butterfly external display, will you please let me it it has light leaks, and also if the alerter volume is similar to, or significantly lower than, the portable. Photos of the light leaks available by email. thanks, Andy..

In a seperate thread I had requested help in getting Flarm contacts to show on my Clearnav. A good suggestion was to insure I had the latest clearnav software uploaded which I have confirmed. I also get the lower case flarm "f" but I am not showing any contacts on the Clearnav screen. I have experimented with all zoom levels and still no luck. Any additional suggestions?

Seperately the range is consistantly around 2.5 miles which is dissapointing given my very careful antenna and gps installation. I certainly hope there is improvement.

You should have v 2.2.0.25 (beta) loaded.

1. Always apply power to PowerFlarm first or within a few seconds of
powering up ClearNav. If you wait as long as a minute after starting
ClearNav, CN may never see the PowerFlarm serial communication.

2. Verify communication on serial port in CN (menu/settings/tools
iirc). Verify that flarm data display is "on" (menu/settings/personal
iirc).

3. You need to zoom in such that the distance scale on the center box
is about 1 mile. Any closer in / further out and you may not see your
targets. The targets show as sailplane silhouettes drawn a bit
lighter than the one that represents yourself, with orientation that
shows direction of flight and a number that shows relative altitude.
If targets are showing on a flarm external display, they should also
show on CN. I've seen this working on my display, but have not flown
in a "Flarm Rich Environment" since adding ClearNav. I'll be at R4S
in a couple of days and will have much more experience, very shortly.

4. Alerts will show on CN on the top 1/2 the display accompanied by
audio. It'll get your attention. I don't think CN displays mode c/s
contacts at present (I see these on my Butterfly display, but not on
CN) and I simply don't know about adsb.

This is obviously all work in progress.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Gentlemen,

please let me give you some short details.

Support:
PowerFLARM Displays are sold and supported in the US. Butterfly as a brand has nothing to do with PowerFLARM Displays and its support. The display design of course comes from us (Butterfly). The FLARM USA team answers all your questions and has good knowledge on the product.

Sounder Volume:
Yes, the sounder volume is limited. This is a design decision because of the very limited current that FLARM (mostly the classic one) delivers to external displays and because of size. Most pilots like it, in Europe we have sold quite some displays even to powered aircraft pilots with good results (way louder than in gliders).

Light-leakage:
This happens due to production variances in the display components we use. It neither affects performance nor power consumption and is absolutely normal.

Thanks for your feedback, it helps us improve our products.

Best wishes
Marc
Butterfly Avionics, Germany



Am Dienstag, 11. September 2012 22:19:30 UTC+2 schrieb Andy:
I received a Butterfly external display with my US PowerFLARM core (brick). I also ordered a PowerFLARM Portable so have been able to compare the two.



The alerter volume of my Butterfly external display is much lower than the alerter volume on my portable, even when the Butterfly is a maximum and the portable is at reduced level.



My Butterfly external display also has light leaks along the entire top and bottom edges. These show up as light bars that are significantly brigher than the display itself. The portable display has no visible light leaks.



I contacted Butterfly and asked for comment as I did not wish to approach my dealer until I know whether these characteristics were typical of all production displays.



Butterfly declined to answer my questions and forwarded my enquiry to Lee Kuhlke of FLARM USA. It seems that Butterfly is taking no responsibility for displays that were exported to USA. Lee has so far declined to provide any answer.



So, if you have a Butterfly external display, will you please let me it it has light leaks, and also if the alerter volume is similar to, or significantly lower than, the portable.



Photos of the light leaks available by email.



thanks,



Andy.

Forgot to add: if you don't see serial comm coming from PF to CN,
double check your PF configuration file to make certain the serial
comm is set correctly and make certain cables are properly connected.
Comm needs to be 19.2kbaud to show non-alert targets. PF will inhibit
data transmission for non-hazardous targets if slower transmission
rates are selected.

"IIRC" applies to all of this. It's all still new and evolving.

T8

On Wednesday, September 12, 2012 11:13:54 AM UTC-4, Marc - Butterfly Avionics wrote:
Gentlemen,



please let me give you some short details.



Support:

PowerFLARM Displays are sold and supported in the US. Butterfly as a brand has nothing to do with PowerFLARM Displays and its support. The display design of course comes from us (Butterfly). The FLARM USA team answers all your questions and has good knowledge on the product.



Sounder Volume:

Yes, the sounder volume is limited. This is a design decision because of the very limited current that FLARM (mostly the classic one) delivers to external displays and because of size. Most pilots like it, in Europe we have sold quite some displays even to powered aircraft pilots with good results (way louder than in gliders).



Light-leakage:

This happens due to production variances in the display components we use.. It neither affects performance nor power consumption and is absolutely normal.



Thanks for your feedback, it helps us improve our products.



Best wishes

Marc

Butterfly Avionics, Germany







Am Dienstag, 11. September 2012 22:19:30 UTC+2 schrieb Andy:

I received a Butterfly external display with my US PowerFLARM core (brick). I also ordered a PowerFLARM Portable so have been able to compare the two.







The alerter volume of my Butterfly external display is much lower than the alerter volume on my portable, even when the Butterfly is a maximum and the portable is at reduced level.







My Butterfly external display also has light leaks along the entire top and bottom edges. These show up as light bars that are significantly brigher than the display itself. The portable display has no visible light leaks.







I contacted Butterfly and asked for comment as I did not wish to approach my dealer until I know whether these characteristics were typical of all production displays.







Butterfly declined to answer my questions and forwarded my enquiry to Lee Kuhlke of FLARM USA. It seems that Butterfly is taking no responsibility for displays that were exported to USA. Lee has so far declined to provide any answer.







So, if you have a Butterfly external display, will you please let me it it has light leaks, and also if the alerter volume is similar to, or significantly lower than, the portable.







Photos of the light leaks available by email.







thanks,







Andy.

Thanks Marc for your reply! I hope you continue to monitor and comment on RAS. I would like to suggest that in the next release of software you consider allowing us to modify the maximum volume if we have the PF Brick (which has more power available for displays than the classic).

On Wednesday, September 12, 2012 10:06:07 AM UTC-5, Evan Ludeman wrote:
On Sep 12, 10:07*am, wrote: On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 3:19:30 PM UTC-5, Andy wrote: I received a Butterfly external display with my US PowerFLARM core (brick). I also ordered a PowerFLARM Portable so have been able to compare the two. The alerter volume of my Butterfly external display is much lower than the alerter volume on my portable, even when the Butterfly is a maximum and the portable is at reduced level.. My Butterfly external display also has light leaks along the entire top and bottom edges. These show up as light bars that are significantly brigher than the display itself. The portable display has no visible light leaks. I contacted Butterfly and asked for comment as I did not wish to approach my dealer until I know whether these characteristics were typical of all production displays. Butterfly declined to answer my questions and forwarded my enquiry to Lee Kuhlke of FLARM USA. It seems that Butterfly is taking no responsibility for displays that were exported to USA. Lee has so far declined to provide any answer. So, if you have a Butterfly external display, will you please let me it it has light leaks, and also if the alerter volume is similar to, or significantly lower than, the portable. Photos of the light leaks available by email. thanks, Andy. In a seperate thread I had requested help in getting Flarm contacts to show on my Clearnav. A good suggestion was to insure I had the latest clearnav software uploaded which I have confirmed. I also get the lower case flarm "f" but I am not showing any contacts on the Clearnav screen. I have experimented with all zoom levels and still no luck. Any additional suggestions? Seperately the range is consistantly around 2.5 miles which is dissapointing given my very careful antenna and gps installation. I certainly hope there is improvement. You should have v 2.2.0.25 (beta) loaded. 1. Always apply power to PowerFlarm first or within a few seconds of powering up ClearNav. If you wait as long as a minute after starting ClearNav, CN may never see the PowerFlarm serial communication. 2. Verify communication on serial port in CN (menu/settings/tools iirc). Verify that flarm data display is "on" (menu/settings/personal iirc). 3. You need to zoom in such that the distance scale on the center box is about 1 mile. Any closer in / further out and you may not see your targets. The targets show as sailplane silhouettes drawn a bit lighter than the one that represents yourself, with orientation that shows direction of flight and a number that shows relative altitude. If targets are showing on a flarm external display, they should also show on CN. I've seen this working on my display, but have not flown in a "Flarm Rich Environment" since adding ClearNav. I'll be at R4S in a couple of days and will have much more experience, very shortly. 4. Alerts will show on CN on the top 1/2 the display accompanied by audio. It'll get your attention. I don't think CN displays mode c/s contacts at present (I see these on my Butterfly display, but not on CN) and I simply don't know about adsb. This is obviously all work in progress. -Evan Ludeman / T8

Excellent help Evan. Thanks so much for the detailed suggestions.

On Wednesday, September 12, 2012 8:13:54 AM UTC-7, Marc - Butterfly Avionics wrote:
Gentlemen,



please let me give you some short details.



Support:

PowerFLARM Displays are sold and supported in the US. Butterfly as a brand has nothing to do with PowerFLARM Displays and its support. The display design of course comes from us (Butterfly). The FLARM USA team answers all your questions and has good knowledge on the product.



Sounder Volume:

Yes, the sounder volume is limited. This is a design decision because of the very limited current that FLARM (mostly the classic one) delivers to external displays and because of size. Most pilots like it, in Europe we have sold quite some displays even to powered aircraft pilots with good results (way louder than in gliders).



Light-leakage:

This happens due to production variances in the display components we use.. It neither affects performance nor power consumption and is absolutely normal.



Thanks for your feedback, it helps us improve our products.



Best wishes

Marc

Butterfly Avionics, Germany







Am Dienstag, 11. September 2012 22:19:30 UTC+2 schrieb Andy:

I received a Butterfly external display with my US PowerFLARM core (brick). I also ordered a PowerFLARM Portable so have been able to compare the two.







The alerter volume of my Butterfly external display is much lower than the alerter volume on my portable, even when the Butterfly is a maximum and the portable is at reduced level.







My Butterfly external display also has light leaks along the entire top and bottom edges. These show up as light bars that are significantly brigher than the display itself. The portable display has no visible light leaks.







I contacted Butterfly and asked for comment as I did not wish to approach my dealer until I know whether these characteristics were typical of all production displays.







Butterfly declined to answer my questions and forwarded my enquiry to Lee Kuhlke of FLARM USA. It seems that Butterfly is taking no responsibility for displays that were exported to USA. Lee has so far declined to provide any answer.







So, if you have a Butterfly external display, will you please let me it it has light leaks, and also if the alerter volume is similar to, or significantly lower than, the portable.







Photos of the light leaks available by email.







thanks,







Andy.

Mark, thanks for your reply.
Since you mention that our feedback helps, and there is no other forum we are aware of to provide it, here are some more feedback/questions:
1 - Are there any differences in display and volume between the rectangular display and the in panel display?
2 - Is it possible in next release to remove volume limit for Powerflarm bricks?
3 - Can the manual be updated to explain the various elements in the display for all possible alerts? I am still not clear how ADS-B traffic is displayed.
4 - There seem to be a bug which result in the latest call sign received continuously showing on subsequent alerts including Mode C alerts, long after the flarm target is gone.
6 - The polarization is such that the display can only be read in vertical mode when using polarized glasses. Any plans to provide a horizontal polarized version?
7 - Instead of the long chirp for nearby PCAS alert (added in latest butterfly version I believe), is it possible to change it to a series of short chirps, similar to the MRX? Even with the low volume, I find the continuous long chirp while thermaling with another transponder equipped glider a bit distracting.
8 - Does butterfly implement some kind of filtering which prevents targets from disappearing momentarily due to loss of signal? This seem the case when comparing to the flarm radar in XCSoar for example.

Ramy

Which of the Butterfly displays are people talking about here when it comes to light leaks and low volume? Do the round and rectangular displays differ in this regard?

Also, does anyone have any experience with reading PowerFLARM data on the following:

LX Nav V7
LX Nav 8080 and 8000
LX 7007 colour
Colibri II

Due to limited panel space I may well have to get by with a brick feeding one of the above rather than use a dedicated display when I finally get around to installing PowerFLARM (I'm certain to have to go this route if I install a transponder as well)

1 - Are there any differences in display and volume between the rectangular display and the in panel display?
Yes, the sounder in the 57mm version is louder. This is mainly possible due to more space.

2 - Is it possible in next release to remove volume limit for Powerflarm bricks?
No, this is a hardware thing.

3 - Can the manual be updated to explain the various elements in the display for all possible alerts? I am still not clear how ADS-B traffic is displayed.
Yes, we further improve the manual. Basically all traffic (with available 3D position) is displayed in one way (which is small arrows if a target flies straight or a blue circle if a target circles and climbs). The latest version manual already points that out.

4 - There seem to be a bug which result in the latest call sign received continuously showing on subsequent alerts including Mode C alerts, long after the flarm target is gone
This is not a bug. The display always keeps the last selected aircraft selected, even if the target comes out of range.
The reason: E.g. you select a teampartner and he gets out of range. Every time he gets back into range you don't want to have to re-select him.

6 - The polarization is such that the display can only be read in vertical mode when using polarized glasses. Any plans to provide a horizontal polarized version?
Unfortunately this it is not possible for us to change display polarization..
Most polarized glasses filter horizontal light, in this case you will have to use the display vertically to read it. Some glasses also have different polarization angles, therefore also some require "landscape" use of the display.

7 - Instead of the long chirp for nearby PCAS alert (added in latest butterfly version I believe), is it possible to change it to a series of short chirps, similar to the MRX? Even with the low volume, I find the continuous long chirp while thermaling with another transponder equipped glider a bit distracting.
Sure this is possible, I'll add this to our wishlist for the next release.

8 - Does butterfly implement some kind of filtering which prevents targets from disappearing momentarily due to loss of signal? This seem the case when comparing to the flarm radar in XCSoar for example.
Yes, we keep a target active for some seconds ( eight seconds) after losing reception (ADS-B and FLARM only).

Hope this helps, best regards
Marc

On Thursday, September 13, 2012 4:49:06 AM UTC-7, Marc - Butterfly Avionics wrote:
1 - Are there any differences in display and volume between the rectangular display and the in panel display?

Yes, the sounder in the 57mm version is louder. This is mainly possible due to more space.



2 - Is it possible in next release to remove volume limit for Powerflarm bricks?

No, this is a hardware thing.



3 - Can the manual be updated to explain the various elements in the display for all possible alerts? I am still not clear how ADS-B traffic is displayed.

Yes, we further improve the manual. Basically all traffic (with available 3D position) is displayed in one way (which is small arrows if a target flies straight or a blue circle if a target circles and climbs). The latest version manual already points that out.



4 - There seem to be a bug which result in the latest call sign received continuously showing on subsequent alerts including Mode C alerts, long after the flarm target is gone

This is not a bug. The display always keeps the last selected aircraft selected, even if the target comes out of range.

The reason: E.g. you select a teampartner and he gets out of range. Every time he gets back into range you don't want to have to re-select him.



6 - The polarization is such that the display can only be read in vertical mode when using polarized glasses. Any plans to provide a horizontal polarized version?

Unfortunately this it is not possible for us to change display polarization.

Most polarized glasses filter horizontal light, in this case you will have to use the display vertically to read it. Some glasses also have different polarization angles, therefore also some require "landscape" use of the display.



7 - Instead of the long chirp for nearby PCAS alert (added in latest butterfly version I believe), is it possible to change it to a series of short chirps, similar to the MRX? Even with the low volume, I find the continuous long chirp while thermaling with another transponder equipped glider a bit distracting.

Sure this is possible, I'll add this to our wishlist for the next release..



8 - Does butterfly implement some kind of filtering which prevents targets from disappearing momentarily due to loss of signal? This seem the case when comparing to the flarm radar in XCSoar for example.

Yes, we keep a target active for some seconds ( eight seconds) after losing reception (ADS-B and FLARM only).



Hope this helps, best regards

Marc

Thanks Marc, this was very helpful. Regarding 4, does that mean that in selection mode, once you selected a target, no other target will be selected automatically even if the one you selected already left or landed? In other words, you always need to actively select a new target in selection mode? My assumption was that the nearest target is selected by default when no other target is selected, or the selected target is no longer in range. I can see the benefit when team flying, but not when randomly selecting someone.

Ramy

On Thursday, September 13, 2012 4:49:06 AM UTC-7, Marc - Butterfly Avionics wrote:

Sure this is possible, I'll add this to our wishlist for the next release.

Marc, we appreciate your responses. Looking forward to the maturation of the software.

If I may, here are a couple more items for your wishlist:

1. Add ability to change the time display from UTC to UTC+/-n, where n allows the pilot to adjust for the local time. A really nice touch would be the ability to specify 12 or 24 hour display, and to make the clock font about 3 times bigger (yeah, the cute butterfly would have to be smaller...

2. The font for the PCAS altitude needs to be bigger. And it would be nice if the closest PCAS target range would be shown in digits, centered on the right side/bottom of the display. If PCAS targets/info were always shown in color - blue above, red +/- 500', green below, it would be easy to associate the range with the PCAS target, when there was also FLARM or ADS-B target info displayed (in black).

3. The PCAS range ring needs to be 2x thicker, and in color.

4. The option to have one short beep anytime a new threat is displayed, regardless of type.

In the US, PCAS threats are a significant concern, ergo the emphasis on their display characteristics.

Thanks,

Kirk
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