Tstorm avoidance

I have a fairly new IFR rating and am wondering how much help to
expect from ATC on Tstorm avoidance. Will they suggest re-routing or
do you have to request it based on visual, FSS, or stormscope
location?

"PaulH" wrote in message
om...
I have a fairly new IFR rating and am wondering how much help to
expect from ATC on Tstorm avoidance. Will they suggest re-routing or
do you have to request it based on visual, FSS, or stormscope
location?

Varies day to day, but you should not _expect_ TS avoidance. First, ATC has
limited equipment to see TS's. Second, their first responsibility is terrain
and traffic separation - your avoidance of storms is definitely a secondary
concern (same goes for icing, by the way).

You can always request rerouting, or just a simple diversion ("Center, 6RP
would like 10 degrees right for 10 minutes for weather", or something like
that.) You are rarely denied either if weather is unsafe. But ultimately it
is your call, and you should expect to have to cancel IFR at some point to
have the freedom to avoid weather. Of course, if you are in IMC, you can
declare an emergency if weather constraints absolutely require it. I have
done this in icing conditions. There have been many debates over whether you
will get in trouble for doing this on this newsgroup. My experience was
that, other than showing concern for my safe passage through the weather,
ATC had no other issues with the emergency declaration.

You cannot expect thunderstorm avoidance from ATC. IT IS YOUR
RESPONSIBILITY.
How much help depends on the individual controller. Having some weather
equipment is a great help. A strike finder or equivalent is your best
first line of defense. They are best a giving azimuth not usually great
on range. A strong storm far away will appear closer than it it is. Good
situational awareness of current position and direction and weather
location and direction are your best line of defense.

Michelle

Michael 182 wrote:

"PaulH" wrote in message
. com...


I have a fairly new IFR rating and am wondering how much help to
expect from ATC on Tstorm avoidance. Will they suggest re-routing or
do you have to request it based on visual, FSS, or stormscope
location?



Varies day to day, but you should not _expect_ TS avoidance. First, ATC has
limited equipment to see TS's. Second, their first responsibility is terrain
and traffic separation - your avoidance of storms is definitely a secondary
concern (same goes for icing, by the way).

You can always request rerouting, or just a simple diversion ("Center, 6RP
would like 10 degrees right for 10 minutes for weather", or something like
that.) You are rarely denied either if weather is unsafe. But ultimately it
is your call, and you should expect to have to cancel IFR at some point to
have the freedom to avoid weather. Of course, if you are in IMC, you can
declare an emergency if weather constraints absolutely require it. I have
done this in icing conditions. There have been many debates over whether you
will get in trouble for doing this on this newsgroup. My experience was
that, other than showing concern for my safe passage through the weather,
ATC had no other issues with the emergency declaration.





--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

Michelle P ) wrote:

. Having some weather equipment is a great help.

And don't forget the excellent resources at Flight Watch or Flight Service
(if flying in the US). Within minutes of leveling off, I am in the habit
of contacting Flight Watch/Service for updates on all cell activity that
may impact my route and for recommended deviations.

Back on ATC frequency, I note deviation requests of other aircraft who have
onboard radar and to ATC reroute clearances. This is also helpful in
understanding where the current weather is. If the frequency is not too
busy, I ask ATC if aircraft ahead of me are deviating.

--
Peter












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"Michelle P" wrote in message
link.net...
A strike finder or equivalent is your best
first line of defense. They are best a giving azimuth not usually great
on range.

Yes...it detects "intensity", not range. If anything, it's "range" is more a
metaphor.

A strong storm far away will appear closer than it it is.

And this is very much a "good thing".

(PaulH) wrote
I have a fairly new IFR rating and am wondering how much help to
expect from ATC on Tstorm avoidance. Will they suggest re-routing or
do you have to request it based on visual, FSS, or stormscope
location?

My experience is that this varies dramatically.

Sometimes, you get a controller who really knows his **** and really
cares about you - he wants to know if it's OK to vector you over water
to less covective areas, will use his RADAR to vector you around
cells, will solicit information from better-equipped aircraft, and
will generally do everything he can to get you where you are going
safely.

Sometimes you get a controller who won't give you more than 2 minutes
off frequency to contact Fligh****ch (and if the weather is bad, that
won't be enough), will flatly tell you he's not painting any weather
(without telling you that he's not painting it because he turned it
off to declutter his display), and will even vector you off course and
right into a cell.

I have actually heard a controller say after he was queried by a pilot
about weather up ahead "Oh, yeah - that's a Level 4. You can deviate
around it if you need to."

A lot of this has to do with airspace congestion. Most of the people
flying when there are embedded T-storms around have some sort of
weather avoidance (Spherics or RADAR) on board, and are deviating
around the areas of bad weather. Controllers rarely if ever deny such
deviation requests (maybe because they know that most experienced IFR
pilots will simply declare an emergency and deviate anyway) but this
leaves them with traffic congestion in the good areas and an increased
workload. When a controller in such a situation gets overloaded,
where do you think he's going to send you?

Face it - if you're going to fly IMC when there are T-storms around,
you need some sort of weather avoidance gear. Relying on ATC is not a
realistic option.

Michael

On 2 Jun 2004 06:59:46 -0700, (PaulH) wrote:

I have a fairly new IFR rating and am wondering how much help to
expect from ATC on Tstorm avoidance. Will they suggest re-routing or
do you have to request it based on visual, FSS, or stormscope
location?

Your best bet is to have onboard radar, Nexrad, or spherics equipment.
ATC (center or approach) will almost always approve a deviation to
avoid the storms. Just ask for X degrees left or right for Y miles
for weather avoidance.

If you don't have onboard weather, you are really in a tough spot. If
the storms are sparse and your flight is short - one can get by with a
good view of the radar picture right before departing the FBO and
getting inflight updates with either Fligh****ch or ATC. This
requires some practice to do effectively and is not effective on a
long distance flight. New cells can pop up easily and the old ones
will move a good distance by the time you get there...

If there are tons of embedded cells there is no way you will be able
to gather enough info from ATC/Fligh****ch to stay clear of all of
them. That's a good time to stay on the ground.

-Nathan

"PaulH" wrote:
I have a fairly new IFR rating and am wondering how
much help to expect from ATC on Tstorm avoidance.

It is not something you can rely upon. Their equipment is not designed
for it and it and individual controllers vary widely in their ability
and inclination to help you. Be especially wary in or near Class B
airspace - they have a lot of aircraft to separate and your t'storm
problems may be way down on their priority list.

Will they suggest re-routing or do you have to request
it based on visual, FSS, or stormscope location?

Get some weather display gear in your airplane and *tell* ATC where you
need to go. If you are going to fly IFR when there are many CBs about,
this is a must.

The best thunderstorm avoidance tool is see-and-avoid, but if you can't
see them with your eyes because you're in IMC, you'd better have a gizmo
that can see them for you.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

"Michael" wrote in message
om...

Face it - if you're going to fly IMC when there are T-storms around,
you need some sort of weather avoidance gear. Relying on ATC is not a
realistic option.

It's not an option PERIOD.

I shudder to think Michael is in the same skies as myself the rest of us.

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 22:52:16 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller"
wrote:


"Michael" wrote in message
. com...

Face it - if you're going to fly IMC when there are T-storms around,
you need some sort of weather avoidance gear. Relying on ATC is not a
realistic option.

It's not an option PERIOD.

I shudder to think Michael is in the same skies as myself the rest of us.

Why? Michael flies a Twin Comanche equipped with Stormscope. Seems
like a pretty capable setup for dodging tstorms.