Obtaining Flight Instructor Certificate

On 2003-11-30 13:38:20 -0800, "Peter Duniho" said:

Since the clause containing the "or" applies only to ratings for which an
instrument rating is required, I don't follow your logic there. I just
don't see why the regulation is written that way. It could be MUCH clearer,
and your suggestion doesn't cause it "to make some sense" in my opinion.

You don't actually need an instrument rating for all of the ratings listed. Here's
how 61.183(2) reads:

(2) An instrument rating or privileges on that person's pilot certificate that is appropriate
to the flight instructor rating sought, if applying for--
(i) A flight instructor certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating;
(ii) A flight instructor certificate with an airplane category and multiengine class rating;
(iii) A flight instructor certificate with a powered-lift rating; or
(iv) A flight instructor certificate with an instrument rating

The "or" may make sense when you think of ratings in a broader sense, encompassing
all flying machines, not just airplanes. I previously mentioned the example of a
multiengine rating restricted to VFR. That would certainly seem to exclude "instrument
privileges" in the case of (ii), where the pilot might have an instrument rating, but no
instrument privileges in multiengine airplanes. If we take a broader look, you might think
about a pilot who has a commercial certificate with an airplane single engine rating, a
rotorcraft helicopter rating, and an instrument helicopter rating. Obviously, that pilot has
an instrument rating, but it certainly does not include instrument privileges for any
airplane ratings.

Does that begin to make some sense?

"Larry Fransson" wrote in message
news:2003113014312075249%lfransson@comcastnet...
You don't actually need an instrument rating for all of the ratings
listed.

I know. That was my point.

The "or" may make sense when you think of ratings in a broader sense,
encompassing
all flying machines, not just airplanes.

How so? The regulation you quoted clearly restricts the "or" clause to
airplanes, powered-lift aircraft (which are basically airplanes, and it's
because of that they are included with airplane-related regulations), or
instrument instruction in any aircraft.

That's my whole point. Andrew's statement was to the effect that the "or"
is there for aircraft other than airplanes. My reply was that the "or"
specifically applies only to aircraft like airplanes. I honestly have no
idea what YOUR point is here.

[...] If we take a broader look, you might think
about a pilot who has a commercial certificate with an airplane single
engine rating, a
rotorcraft helicopter rating, and an instrument helicopter rating.
Obviously, that pilot has
an instrument rating, but it certainly does not include instrument
privileges for any
airplane ratings.

Does that begin to make some sense?

It in no way explains why the clause beginning with "or" is present in the
regulation.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message ...

If you're not trying to get qualified to instruct instrument flight, why
would you need an instrument rating, assuming you had all the other
necessary privileges on your pilot certificate? What does "privileges on
that person's pilot certificate that are appropriate to the flight
instructor rating sought" actually mean?

ATP's don't hold instrument ratings.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
...
ATP's don't hold instrument ratings.

So? Please read the rest of the thread. The clause easily could have
specified "instrument privileges" specifically, but it didn't. So, not only
does it not make clear that "instrument privileges" ARE required, it implies
that some other privileges might be necessary and/or sufficient.

Of all the poorly written paragraphs in the FARs, this sure seems to be one
of them.

Pete

"BTIZ" wrote in message news:66Vxb.11631$ML6.4351@fed1read01...
as I understand it.. a CFI without an Instrument rating on his Commercial
certificate will not be able to teach cross country or at night.

Commercial privileges are limited to 50nm and day time only if you don't
have a IFR rating.

Your "basic" student working towards the private is a "paying passenger" in
a commercial operation.

No, you cannot apply for a CFI rating without first showing you hold
an instrument rating (or ATP).

No, teaching is not a commercial operation, that is why we don't need
class 2 medical. Teaching is a nice expection that allows us to be
paid to fly without it being a commercial operation. In the eyes of
the FAA, you are being paid to teach, not to fly. For post-solo
students, that's true. I rarely even actually touch the controls with
post-solo students (but I do "guard" them).

-Robert, CFI

Big John wrote in message . ..
Private Pilot requires 3 hours of instruent flight instruction.

Doesn't CFI have to have and instrument rating to teach instrument
flight?

No, there is no requirement for instrument training for a private
applicant. If you read the FARs very carefully, you will see that
private students must receive 3 hours of
"3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the
control^M
and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments"
This intentionally worded different from the instrument training
required by a commerical or instrument applicant. This was done for a
good reason. A CFI without a CFII cannot act "within the priv of his
ticket" while giving instrument training. Luckily, privates don't
require any.

-Robert, CFI

Judah wrote in message . ..
Does a safety pilot have to be Instrument Rated in order to be Safety
Pilot while the PIC is under the hood?

By your logic, that would seem to be the case. But we both know it not to
be the case. Why would a CFI be required to have an instrument rating to
teach Simulated IFR?

A CFI does not need an instrument rating to teach instruments, he must
have an instrument rating to fill out an application for a CFI rating.
A CFI's pilot instrument rating has nothing to do with what he can
teach. For example, a CFI is never required to maintain instrument
currency unless he needs to serve as PIC under IFR (which private
instruction is almost never done under).

-Robert, CFI