Obtaining Flight Instructor Certificate

If you are going to become a CFI, I suggest you start looking into better
ways to learn about the FARs. Getting information on a newsgroup won't cut
it.




"Chris" wrote in message
...
Larry can you explain what is incorrect with BTIZ statement becasue I
really
need to know if an instument rating is required or not to be a CFI the
regs
were not exactly clear to me in this area.

Thanks
Chris

"Larry Fransson" wrote in message
news:2003112821481850073%lfransson@comcastnet...
On 2003-11-28 20:29:58 -0800, "Chris" said:

Thanks for your response BTIZ that clarfies things alot!


"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:66Vxb.11631$ML6.4351@fed1read01...
as I understand it.. a CFI without an Instrument rating on his
Commercial
certificate will not be able to teach cross country or at night.

Commercial privileges are limited to 50nm and day time only if you
don't
have a IFR rating.

Your "basic" student working towards the private is a "paying
passenger"
in
a commercial operation.

Just don't take that as gospel truth. He's incorrect on both counts.

"Peter Duniho" wrote

I have to admit, I understand why Chris could not parse
61.183(c)(2). It says a person needs "an instrument rating, OR
privileges on that person's pilot certificate that are
appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought".

I am a Flight Instructor-Airplane, but I do not have an Instrument
Rating on my pilot certificate per the following:


Section 61.167: Privileges.
(a) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate is
entitled to the same privileges as those afforded a person who holds
a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating.


Bob Moore

Larry Fransson wrote in message news:2003112821481850073%lfransson@comcastnet...
On 2003-11-28 20:29:58 -0800, "Chris" said:
Thanks for your response BTIZ that clarfies things alot!
"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:66Vxb.11631$ML6.4351@fed1read01...
as I understand it.. a CFI without an Instrument rating on his Commercial
certificate will not be able to teach cross country or at night.
Commercial privileges are limited to 50nm and day time only if you don't
have a IFR rating.
Your "basic" student working towards the private is a "paying passenger"
in
a commercial operation.
Just don't take that as gospel truth. He's incorrect on both counts.


I agree with Larry, i.e., that BTIZ (I hope I am citing who wrote what
correctly) is incorrect, however, with some minor differences; i.e.,
one, I agree that one is not eligible to become a CFI without an
instrument rating, but not for the reason given by BTIZ. Here is how
I come up to this conclusion (my sources: 14 CFR 61 as well as the
related FAQ document that may be found at the FAA web site -- search
for pt61-18.pdf -- the document is maintained by John Lynch, General
Aviation Certification Branch, AFS-840).

(Now guys, be nice, correct me where I am going wrong here)

first, eligibility requirements to be a flight instructor as in
61.183, and in particular 61.183(c)(2), which is not as well worded
as one would wish; from the FAQ document, it appears that it states
that "in addition to holding either a commercial pilot certificate or
an airline transport pilot certificate the CFI candidate must also hold an
instrument rating or instrument privileges [as provided with an ATP
certificate]"

in other words one is not eligible with a restricted commercial certificate
without an instrument rating.

Now, the part about the no night flying/no cross country in excess of
50 miles limitations -- see 61.133(b) -- mentioned by BTIZ would not
apply for two reasons; one, the one mentioned just above, the other
one is that a CFI is actually not providing his/her services as a pilot
but as an instructor (which is why one can be paid as a flight instructor
with just a class-III medical certificate or even without any valid
medical certificate if one is acting as PIC, or as required crew member,
see 61.23(b)(5)); i.e., while instructing, a CFI is only exercising
the privileges of a private pilot...

seriously, get yourself a copy of this part 61 FAQ document, it is very
well worth the read, and clarifies an awful lot of somewhat obscure points
like this one...

--Sylvain (still working towards becoming a CFI :-))

I don't have the FAR book right in front of me (yes, I know it's
available online), but I can advise you from a practical standpoint.
When I took my CFI checkride in May, the examiner specifically checked
for _both_ the commercial and instrument aspects of of my certificate.

Although you will most likely always be teaching in VFR conditions,
there are times when you must instruct in simulated IFR conditions
(for the student, of course!). The FAA requires each student to log
three hours of instrument (flight solely by reference to instruments)
in order to obtain a private pilot certificate. So you would be
instructing in instrument technique during these instances and it
would seem logical that you would need to have some background in that
area.

David


"Chris" wrote in message ...
To obtain a flight instuctor certificate is it mandtory you have a
commercial certificate with instument privlages even if you will only be a
CFI teaching VFR only? or does the FAA require it regardless the wording in
part 61.183 was alittle unclear to me. Anyone who can clarify please do
thanks so much!

-Chris

On 2003-11-28 21:56:07 -0800, "BTIZ" said:

Please explain and give references other than making a statement.

My reference? I have held a CFI certificate since 1992. I needed an instrument rating then,
and that hasn't changed. I'll agree that the wording of 61.183(c)(2) becomes somewhat
difficult after the words "instrument rating." It could be that what the "or" is referring to is
something like a multiengine rating. It is possible to hold a commercial certificate with a
multiengine rating that is restricted to VFR. In that case, it appears you would not be eligible
for a multiengine instructor rating as you do not have "instrument...privileges...appropriate to
the flight instructor rating sought."

As for the part about students being paying passengers in a commercial operation, I can't give you a reference because there isn't one. It is flight instruction, which is specifically excluded from the passenger-carrying provisions of the regulations as stated in 119.1(e)(1). If it somehow were a passenger-carrying operation, the only place it would fit is part 135, which specifically prohibits passengers from manipulating the flight controls.

Private Pilot requires 3 hours of instruent flight instruction.

Doesn't CFI have to have and instrument rating to teach instrument
flight?

I was always on the top end of the order (CFII) and never took much
notice of the bottom feeders.G

This is a serios query not a straight man feed line for the local
comics.

Big John


On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:46:59 -0500, "Chris"
wrote:

To obtain a flight instuctor certificate is it mandtory you have a
commercial certificate with instument privlages even if you will only be a
CFI teaching VFR only? or does the FAA require it regardless the wording in
part 61.183 was alittle unclear to me. Anyone who can clarify please do
thanks so much!

-Chris

Sylvain

It's interesting that you point out how one can legally fly without a
medical certificate. Haven't seen it talked about for years.

I have someplace a copy of the original letter that the FAA Lawyer put
out that spelled out that it was authorized and the conditions.

Am sure your data will be an eye opener even for some CFI's.

26 days and counting G

Big John


On 29 Nov 2003 05:20:55 -0800, (Sylvain) wrote:

Larry Fransson wrote in message news:2003112821481850073%lfransson@comcastnet...
On 2003-11-28 20:29:58 -0800, "Chris" said:
Thanks for your response BTIZ that clarfies things alot!
"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:66Vxb.11631$ML6.4351@fed1read01...
as I understand it.. a CFI without an Instrument rating on his Commercial
certificate will not be able to teach cross country or at night.
Commercial privileges are limited to 50nm and day time only if you don't
have a IFR rating.
Your "basic" student working towards the private is a "paying passenger"
in
a commercial operation.
Just don't take that as gospel truth. He's incorrect on both counts.


I agree with Larry, i.e., that BTIZ (I hope I am citing who wrote what
correctly) is incorrect, however, with some minor differences; i.e.,
one, I agree that one is not eligible to become a CFI without an
instrument rating, but not for the reason given by BTIZ. Here is how
I come up to this conclusion (my sources: 14 CFR 61 as well as the
related FAQ document that may be found at the FAA web site -- search
for pt61-18.pdf -- the document is maintained by John Lynch, General
Aviation Certification Branch, AFS-840).

(Now guys, be nice, correct me where I am going wrong here)

first, eligibility requirements to be a flight instructor as in
61.183, and in particular 61.183(c)(2), which is not as well worded
as one would wish; from the FAQ document, it appears that it states
that "in addition to holding either a commercial pilot certificate or
an airline transport pilot certificate the CFI candidate must also hold an
instrument rating or instrument privileges [as provided with an ATP
certificate]"

in other words one is not eligible with a restricted commercial certificate
without an instrument rating.

Now, the part about the no night flying/no cross country in excess of
50 miles limitations -- see 61.133(b) -- mentioned by BTIZ would not
apply for two reasons; one, the one mentioned just above, the other
one is that a CFI is actually not providing his/her services as a pilot
but as an instructor (which is why one can be paid as a flight instructor
with just a class-III medical certificate or even without any valid
medical certificate if one is acting as PIC, or as required crew member,
see 61.23(b)(5)); i.e., while instructing, a CFI is only exercising
the privileges of a private pilot...

seriously, get yourself a copy of this part 61 FAQ document, it is very
well worth the read, and clarifies an awful lot of somewhat obscure points
like this one...

--Sylvain (still working towards becoming a CFI :-))

Big John wrote

Doesn't CFI have to have and instrument rating to teach
instrument flight?

Depends on which definition of instrument flight you want to
consider.

1. Control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference
to instruments.

2. Instrument flight training

Item 1. being that training required for the Private Pilot
certificate and need not be given by the holder of a Flight
Instructor-Instrument/Airplane certificate.

Item 2. is that training required for an Instrument Rating
and must be given by the holder of a Flight Instructor-Inst-
rument/Airplane certificate.



Section 61.195: Flight instructor limitations and qualifications
(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument
flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type
rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or
her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is
appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which
instrument training is being provided.

Bob Moore

"Robert Moore" wrote in message
. 8...
I am a Flight Instructor-Airplane, but I do not have an Instrument
Rating on my pilot certificate per the following:

I do understand the implication of holding an ATP certificate, thank you.
That's not the point. The regulation says "that are appropriate to the
flight instructor rating sought" but does not define what that means.

If they mean "that are equivalent to an instrument rating", why not just say
that? It's specific, to the point, and most importantly, unambiguous,
unlike the current regulation.

Pete

I've gotten the most clear and concise answers to FAR questions right here.
You just have to know how to weed out some garbage ocassionally.

mike regish

"Richard Hertz" wrote in message
t...
If you are going to become a CFI, I suggest you start looking into better
ways to learn about the FARs. Getting information on a newsgroup won't
cut
it.




"Chris" wrote in message
...
Larry can you explain what is incorrect with BTIZ statement becasue I
really
need to know if an instument rating is required or not to be a CFI the
regs
were not exactly clear to me in this area.

Thanks
Chris

"Larry Fransson" wrote in message
news:2003112821481850073%lfransson@comcastnet...
On 2003-11-28 20:29:58 -0800, "Chris" said:

Thanks for your response BTIZ that clarfies things alot!


"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:66Vxb.11631$ML6.4351@fed1read01...
as I understand it.. a CFI without an Instrument rating on his
Commercial
certificate will not be able to teach cross country or at night.

Commercial privileges are limited to 50nm and day time only if you
don't
have a IFR rating.

Your "basic" student working towards the private is a "paying
passenger"
in
a commercial operation.

Just don't take that as gospel truth. He's incorrect on both counts.