Obtaining Flight Instructor Certificate

An IR isn't required for the ATP?

mike regish

"Robert Moore" wrote in message
. 8...
"Peter Duniho" wrote

I have to admit, I understand why Chris could not parse
61.183(c)(2). It says a person needs "an instrument rating, OR
privileges on that person's pilot certificate that are
appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought".

I am a Flight Instructor-Airplane, but I do not have an Instrument
Rating on my pilot certificate per the following:


Section 61.167: Privileges.
(a) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate is
entitled to the same privileges as those afforded a person who holds
a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating.


Bob Moore

Doesn't CFI have to have and instrument rating to teach instrument
flight?


Oddly, no. IMO, the FAA weaseled it way out of that one by redefining
what is taught to a private pilot as "flight by reference to
instruments", rather than "instrument training".

In reality, a distinction without a difference. A more honest
approach would have been to grant an exemption to CFI's for training
private pilot.

"mike regish" wrote in
news:2l7yb.158250$Dw6.630001@attbi_s02:

An IR isn't required for the ATP?

Instrument is included in the ATP unless the ATP certificate
is restricted to "VFR Only". As I recall, some years back,
there were some Part 121 helicopter operations that required
an ATP certificate but were flown in helicopters that were not
IFR equiped.

Bob

I've been trying to pour through that document.. and have it on my computer
to do word searches..

I must admit.. that my statement stems from a "FAA Safety Seminar" before
the current "Wings" program.. where the FSDO and the local DEs all agreed..
at that time.. about 15 yrs ago.. a Commercial only pilot could be a
"Basic" CFI... but had the above discussed restrictions.. for the reasons
mentioned..

It seems that based on the information recently provided in FAQ part61..
they "removed all doubt".. by requiring an instructor candidate (for
airplane) to require an IFR rating.

ISHC (I stand Humbly corrected)
BT
"Sylvain" wrote in message
om...
Larry Fransson wrote in message
news:2003112821481850073%lfransson@comcastnet...
On 2003-11-28 20:29:58 -0800, "Chris" said:
Thanks for your response BTIZ that clarfies things alot!
"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:66Vxb.11631$ML6.4351@fed1read01...
as I understand it.. a CFI without an Instrument rating on his
Commercial
certificate will not be able to teach cross country or at night.
Commercial privileges are limited to 50nm and day time only if you
don't
have a IFR rating.
Your "basic" student working towards the private is a "paying
passenger"
in
a commercial operation.
Just don't take that as gospel truth. He's incorrect on both counts.


I agree with Larry, i.e., that BTIZ (I hope I am citing who wrote what
correctly) is incorrect, however, with some minor differences; i.e.,
one, I agree that one is not eligible to become a CFI without an
instrument rating, but not for the reason given by BTIZ. Here is how
I come up to this conclusion (my sources: 14 CFR 61 as well as the
related FAQ document that may be found at the FAA web site -- search
for pt61-18.pdf -- the document is maintained by John Lynch, General
Aviation Certification Branch, AFS-840).

(Now guys, be nice, correct me where I am going wrong here)

first, eligibility requirements to be a flight instructor as in
61.183, and in particular 61.183(c)(2), which is not as well worded
as one would wish; from the FAQ document, it appears that it states
that "in addition to holding either a commercial pilot certificate or
an airline transport pilot certificate the CFI candidate must also hold an
instrument rating or instrument privileges [as provided with an ATP
certificate]"

in other words one is not eligible with a restricted commercial
certificate
without an instrument rating.

Now, the part about the no night flying/no cross country in excess of
50 miles limitations -- see 61.133(b) -- mentioned by BTIZ would not
apply for two reasons; one, the one mentioned just above, the other
one is that a CFI is actually not providing his/her services as a pilot
but as an instructor (which is why one can be paid as a flight instructor
with just a class-III medical certificate or even without any valid
medical certificate if one is acting as PIC, or as required crew member,
see 61.23(b)(5)); i.e., while instructing, a CFI is only exercising
the privileges of a private pilot...

seriously, get yourself a copy of this part 61 FAQ document, it is very
well worth the read, and clarifies an awful lot of somewhat obscure
points
like this one...

--Sylvain (still working towards becoming a CFI :-))

You're right. Calling every FSDO in the US to get every possible opinion
there is works much better!




"Richard Hertz" wrote in
t:

If you are going to become a CFI, I suggest you start looking into
better ways to learn about the FARs. Getting information on a
newsgroup won't cut it.

Does a safety pilot have to be Instrument Rated in order to be Safety
Pilot while the PIC is under the hood?

By your logic, that would seem to be the case. But we both know it not to
be the case. Why would a CFI be required to have an instrument rating to
teach Simulated IFR?



Big John wrote in
:

Private Pilot requires 3 hours of instruent flight instruction.

Doesn't CFI have to have and instrument rating to teach instrument
flight?

I was always on the top end of the order (CFII) and never took much
notice of the bottom feeders.G

This is a serios query not a straight man feed line for the local
comics.

Big John


On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:46:59 -0500, "Chris"
wrote:

To obtain a flight instuctor certificate is it mandtory you have a
commercial certificate with instument privlages even if you will only
be a CFI teaching VFR only? or does the FAA require it regardless the
wording in part 61.183 was alittle unclear to me. Anyone who can
clarify please do thanks so much!

-Chris

Big John wrote in message
It's interesting that you point out how one can legally fly without a
medical certificate. Haven't seen it talked about for years.

I did look up the class-III thing quite a while ago and made sure I
understood it properly because i) I wanted to become a CFI (still not
there yet, I should stop procrastinating and take the exam ...:-);
and ii) only had a class-III at the time with a SODA limited to class-III
only and I wasn't sure whether I could upgrade it to class-II or higher;
turned out that I was able to do so (all it took was additional time to
process the paper work and another medical flight test, no biggie; but
I digress; anyway, the point is that when you have to get SODA to fly,
you end up having to learn the regs pretty well :-)

except that I made a mistake (hope you guys would have corrected it,
but just to be sure):

(which is why one can be paid as a flight instructor
with just a class-III medical certificate or even without any valid
medical certificate if one is acting as PIC, or as required crew member,
see 61.23(b)(5)); i.e., while instructing, a CFI is only exercising
the privileges of a private pilot...

I meant to say: if one is NOT acting as PIC or as required crew member...

for instance, when you are teaching an advanced student (already rated
in category and class -- and type as the case may be -- and with proper
endorsement should it be a complex/high-perf/tailwheel) who can act as
PIC...

--Sylvain

On 2003-11-29 19:59:07 -0800, Judah said:

Does a safety pilot have to be Instrument Rated in order to be Safety
Pilot while the PIC is under the hood?

By your logic, that would seem to be the case. But we both know it not to
be the case. Why would a CFI be required to have an instrument rating to
teach Simulated IFR?

Because instructors are there to teach. That means they should know something
about what they're teaching. Safety pilots aren't there to teach. They're there
to be a pair of eyes.

The wording of the FAR is indeed confusing. However, the PTS for
flight instructor (airplane) clearly states that a
commercial/instrument or ATP is a prerequisite for the checkride. I
know that the PTS is not regulatory, but if you don't satisfy the PTS
requirements you won't pass the checkride regardless of what you think
the FAR says.

Also, I believe that only an airplane or airship instructor rating
requires an instrument rating. In that context, the wording "OR
privileges on that person's pilot certificate that are appropriate to
the flight instructor rating sought" starts to make some sense.


"Chris" wrote in message ...
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the "OR" in that regulation is
alittle wordy.

-Chris



"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"Larry Fransson" wrote in message
news:2003112817560816807%larry@larryandjennynet...
For a flight instructor certificate with an airplane rating, you must
have
a commercial certificate with an instrument rating. If you're going for a
helicopter CFI, you don't need the instrument rating.

I have to admit, I understand why Chris could not parse 61.183(c)(2). It
says a person needs "an instrument rating, OR privileges on that person's
pilot certificate that are appropriate to the flight instructor rating
sought".

If you're not trying to get qualified to instruct instrument flight, why
would you need an instrument rating, assuming you had all the other
necessary privileges on your pilot certificate? What does "privileges on
that person's pilot certificate that are appropriate to the flight
instructor rating sought" actually mean?

I'd never actually looked at this particular line that closely, and had
always assumed you are required to have an instrument rating to get a
flight
instructor certificate. But now I don't see how the regulation
specifically
says this (though I admit, the regulation is worded so oddly, I'm not
really
sure what it DOES say ). The Part 61 FAQ seems to say that you DO need
an instrument rating, but does not clarify what the reasoning behind that
conclusion is. They seem to think the regulation is clear as written.

Pete

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
om...
Also, I believe that only an airplane or airship instructor rating
requires an instrument rating. In that context, the wording "OR
privileges on that person's pilot certificate that are appropriate to
the flight instructor rating sought" starts to make some sense.

Since the clause containing the "or" applies only to ratings for which an
instrument rating is required, I don't follow your logic there. I just
don't see why the regulation is written that way. It could be MUCH clearer,
and your suggestion doesn't cause it "to make some sense" in my opinion.

Pete