Who's Boss?

wrote in message
...

That's interesting. The GPS 16 approach starts off in Class E then goes
into Class C at above 1700 just past the Gugwa (or Brenz) FAF.


GUGWA looks to be about 2 miles from the Class C boundary, you don't need to
enter Class C airspace at all on that approach.



It looks like I could shoot the whole approach without talking to Jackson
approach, although it would be very close. That being said, I've always
got the feeling that I should be talking to Jackson approach going into
Hawkins which is in Class C. I guess that gives me a little bargaining
power. However, I have to deal with these controllers all the time and I
supposed it's not wise to irritate them in this manner. My whole complaint
is that they ignored my very understandable desire to stay within glide
distance, which really shouldn't have been a problem for them. It was as
though I were inconveniencing them by flying the approach differently,
wanting to stay higher until the FAF.

Lately, I get the feeling that the Jackson controllers are overwhelmed. I
flew in tonight, asked for the GPS 16 VFR by my own navigation and was
told "unable" when 20 miles out. What the heck does that mean? Unable to
what? I'm flying the whole thing myself VFR. They don't have to do a
thing.


It could only mean they're unable to provide separation from IFR aircraft in
the outer area. So tell them good day and continue with your plans, staying
outside of Class C airspace.

wrote in message
...

So how would you phrase that? "210BA is cancelling flight following and
squawking VFR"?


Something like "210BA is terminating Class C services and squawking VFR"
would be better. You do realize you're getting more than flight following
here, don't you?

On Dec 17, 10:26 pm, wrote:
At night, I like the structure of
an instrument approach, but I want the altitude for an emergency glide.
Maybe I shouldn't call it a "practice approach" but by doing so, the
controller knows where I am going and why. He asked me to descend to 2,000
while I am outbound from Ocaro, 13 miles from the runway, for traffic that
is not a threat an clearly visible to me. I say, "If you don't mind, I'd
like to stay higher until Gugwa." Controller says, "I do mind. Descend for
traffic." So if I say "Unable to descend yet. Have traffic visually. Will
maintain seperation." Can I continue on my merry way and ignore his command
that I descend below a safe gliding distance. Or is he going is he going to
report me to the FSDO?

With all that technology and you had an agenda / flight profile of
your own, and you didn't want or need ATC assistance, why even bother
calling in for VFR flight following? Navigate as you see fit and just
call into Hawkins tower.

Allen

You're right. I've just always felt like talking to approach was the good
citizen thing to do. But if they don't care about my personal safety
concerns, then maybe I should just operate independently.

Jog by memory. What are my requirements to enter Class D. If I recall, I
just have to make radio contact with the tower. What happens when the tower
is closed.

It's so rare I fly outside the system.


wrote in message
...
On Dec 17, 10:26 pm, wrote:
At night, I like the structure of
an instrument approach, but I want the altitude for an emergency glide.
Maybe I shouldn't call it a "practice approach" but by doing so, the
controller knows where I am going and why. He asked me to descend to
2,000
while I am outbound from Ocaro, 13 miles from the runway, for traffic
that
is not a threat an clearly visible to me. I say, "If you don't mind, I'd
like to stay higher until Gugwa." Controller says, "I do mind. Descend
for
traffic." So if I say "Unable to descend yet. Have traffic visually. Will
maintain seperation." Can I continue on my merry way and ignore his
command
that I descend below a safe gliding distance. Or is he going is he going
to
report me to the FSDO?

With all that technology and you had an agenda / flight profile of
your own, and you didn't want or need ATC assistance, why even bother
calling in for VFR flight following? Navigate as you see fit and just
call into Hawkins tower.

Allen

When the tower is closed, use the tower CTAF, which is the tower freq
[towers with multiple freq, check the AIM.



wrote in message
. ..
| You're right. I've just always felt like talking to approach was the good
| citizen thing to do. But if they don't care about my personal safety
| concerns, then maybe I should just operate independently.
|
| Jog by memory. What are my requirements to enter Class D. If I recall, I
| just have to make radio contact with the tower. What happens when the
tower
| is closed.
|
| It's so rare I fly outside the system.
|
|
| wrote in message
| ...
| On Dec 17, 10:26 pm, wrote:
| At night, I like the structure of
| an instrument approach, but I want the altitude for an emergency glide.
| Maybe I shouldn't call it a "practice approach" but by doing so, the
| controller knows where I am going and why. He asked me to descend to
| 2,000
| while I am outbound from Ocaro, 13 miles from the runway, for traffic
| that
| is not a threat an clearly visible to me. I say, "If you don't mind,
I'd
| like to stay higher until Gugwa." Controller says, "I do mind. Descend
| for
| traffic." So if I say "Unable to descend yet. Have traffic visually.
Will
| maintain seperation." Can I continue on my merry way and ignore his
| command
| that I descend below a safe gliding distance. Or is he going is he
going
| to
| report me to the FSDO?
|
| With all that technology and you had an agenda / flight profile of
| your own, and you didn't want or need ATC assistance, why even bother
| calling in for VFR flight following? Navigate as you see fit and just
| call into Hawkins tower.
|
| Allen
|
|

wrote in message
. ..

Jog by memory. What are my requirements to enter Class D. If I recall, I
just have to make radio contact with the tower. What happens when the
tower is closed.


The field is uncontrolled and tower frequency is CTAF.

"Wyatt Emmerich" wrote in message
...

I'm flying into my home base KHKS at night in a single engine airplane. At
no point have I been outside of glide range to an airport. I am VFR
shooting a practice full approach in Class C airspace going into a Class D
airport. The controller wants me to descend to 2,000 feet five miles
before the FAF for traffic (which I can plainly see.) I want to stay at
4,000 and stay within glide range and descend more slowly. Do I have the
authority to tell him no?


You can tell him you have the traffic in sight, then he can assign visual
separation and there's no reason for him to push you down.

Rather than shoot the approach as published, I guess I could just program
the GPS 16 with vectors and do my own vectors. This would allow me to
descend slighly to the west of the Class C airspace, then intercept the GPS
or ILS glideslope and lateral guidance as I got closer to the airport. (I
have a healthy respect for the black hole illusion.) As far as the
controller is concerned, I'm just shooting my own visual approach. If he
interferes, I just cancel following an squak VFR.



"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
...

"Wyatt Emmerich" wrote in message
...

I'm flying into my home base KHKS at night in a single engine airplane.
At no point have I been outside of glide range to an airport. I am VFR
shooting a practice full approach in Class C airspace going into a Class
D airport. The controller wants me to descend to 2,000 feet five miles
before the FAF for traffic (which I can plainly see.) I want to stay at
4,000 and stay within glide range and descend more slowly. Do I have the
authority to tell him no?


You can tell him you have the traffic in sight, then he can assign visual
separation and there's no reason for him to push you down.

wrote in message
. ..

Rather than shoot the approach as published, I guess I could just program
the GPS 16 with vectors and do my own vectors. This would allow me to
descend slighly to the west of the Class C airspace, then intercept the
GPS or ILS glideslope and lateral guidance as I got closer to the airport.
(I have a healthy respect for the black hole illusion.) As far as the
controller is concerned, I'm just shooting my own visual approach. If he
interferes, I just cancel following an squak VFR.


Why contact ATC in the first place you're going to refuse the service?

Well . . . I want to be in contact with them because they are trying to
manage the airspace. I don't want to be rude. I know at least two of these
controllers personally. Sort of like knocking on the door before walking in,
but I want to leave if they start making me do something I don't want to.
The problem is that once you accept the invitation to the party, it's rude
to start trying to changing the itinerary. On the other hand, they know me.
I am based there. I am friends with a couple of the controllers. For me to
fly so close to their airspace unannounced is bad manners. My controller
friends oblige, but there are a few guys who don't seem to give a rat's ass.
Anyway, there's no real answer, but seeking it has enhanced my understanding
of the process. Thanks.

I'm reminded of a time I was flying through very busy Tampa airpace. The
controller wanted to vector me 30 miles offshore into an icing layer and got
irritated when I declined. It led me to coin the phrase, "Request vectors to
a less busy controller."

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
. ..

Rather than shoot the approach as published, I guess I could just program
the GPS 16 with vectors and do my own vectors. This would allow me to
descend slighly to the west of the Class C airspace, then intercept the
GPS or ILS glideslope and lateral guidance as I got closer to the
airport. (I have a healthy respect for the black hole illusion.) As far
as the controller is concerned, I'm just shooting my own visual approach.
If he interferes, I just cancel following an squak VFR.


Why contact ATC in the first place you're going to refuse the service?