Air Force uniform prototype makes debut

I've likely started
thousands of aircraft engines and NEVER had an engine fire on
start

I've started 8 engines at least 300 times (2400 starts) and I've only had 2
engine fires on start and one of them was a torch that the crew chief, in my
opinion, over reacted to.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"WaltBJ" wrote in message
m...
Change the uniforms again? Jesus X Christ! What's wrong with these
guys' brains? They get up to CoS and all of sudden they think - "Hey,
it's time to change the uniform!" I forget the name of the jerk who

"Hire somebody, fire somebody and paint the lobby."
Was the advice I heard for taking an upper management job.
Since the entire Air Force can't see you changed the color
of the lobby they think they need to change the uniform
to prove they're in charge.
sigh professional managers sigh

deep-sixed the trench coat - but I still have mine and I wear it when
it gets cold here in CO. Very nifty coat, too. The only decent move
these perfumed princes (thanks, Hack!) ever made in the uni bit was to
go to wash and wears. But then I mostly wore flying suits anyway. The
Nomex bag wasn't so bad after it had been through the washing machine
a dozen or so times. A real sweat hog when brand new, though.

I know the word for our Nomex racing suits was to never wash them:
the fire proofing washed out. Was the fire proofing the thing that
accounted for the "sweat hog" effect ya' think?

BTW what is the uniform allowance now - still 2 bucks a month?
Walt BJ

"George Shirley" wrote in message
.. .
wrote:

George Shirley wrote:

--cut--

My god, that was hot work, trying to get some rest/sleep while
lying back in the midrest seats alongside the open overwing
hatches listening to the hellish pounding of the slipstream
there. The bunks were unuseable due to the heat. You guys now
have it easy in airconditioned comfort!...
--

-Gord.

Nomex is well known in the oil refining industry as being hot in the
summer and cold in the winter. It only protects against flash fires up
to about 900F AFAIK and you ain't gonna make it if the fire is really
bad. Personally I always preferred cotton clothing when I was a plant
operator and still wear cotton and wool by preference. Hopefully my
Nomex coveralls are hanging in the closet forever. VBG

George, wearing his safety consultant hat again


Y'know, this is a favourite subject of mine. We wear Nomex for
years and years with all the attendant discomfort that it gives
us just to protect 'someone' for a few seconds of 'flash fire'
maybe. Seems like a silly thing to do, it's like we provide a
'fireguard' for every a/c engine start when it'll maybe do some
good on some start ten years in the future. I've likely started
thousands of aircraft engines and NEVER had an engine fire on
start, moreover, I've never even seen one. That spread out over
26 years of service. Never even SEEN one, let alone HAD one
myself, let alone had one myself which was put out by the fire
guard!!.


I know of a crew who escaped with burns on back of head and ears only when
the aircraft exploded. They made it out and the nomex did save their back
sides. I never had a fire during start in over 4000 individual engine
starts. I don't count a few torches with J57s that were blown out
immediately. I guess the real question would be, could you give a good
answer to your commander if you did lose the jet because of a fire and you
didn't have a fire guard. But usually it is a waste of time.

MG

(BUFDRVR) wrote:

I've likely started
thousands of aircraft engines and NEVER had an engine fire on
start

I've started 8 engines at least 300 times (2400 starts) and I've only had 2
engine fires on start and one of them was a torch that the crew chief, in my
opinion, over reacted to.


BUFDRVR

Sure...and just about anyone who starts a/c engines can say the
same...fireguards are a waste of time...
--

-Gord.

"Gord Beaman" wrote

I'd love to have a bean counter to run this by. Just think of all
the manpower hours wasted by this unproductive occupation!. It's
like doing a complete teardown and rebuild of your car engine
every six months at a cost of half of the engine's worth. Nothing
short of ridiculous overkill.

Talk to any Nascar or Professional drag racer about engine tear-downs.

No matter what the bean-counter says, the winners run fresh engines,
and they don't last 6 months even. You only have to look at the monthly
inflight shutdown rate, and that number of hours is the right edge of the
bell curve.

"Gord Beaman" wrote
(BUFDRVR) wrote:

I've likely started
thousands of aircraft engines and NEVER had an engine fire on
start

I've started 8 engines at least 300 times (2400 starts) and I've only had 2
engine fires on start and one of them was a torch that the crew chief, in my
opinion, over reacted to.


BUFDRVR

Sure...and just about anyone who starts a/c engines can say the
same...fireguards are a waste of time...

We had a DC-3 burn-up on start in Pleiku once. Course that was
a gasoline fire. It was full of body bags going to Saigon. What a mess.
Digging latrines was good duty that week. That was a month before
the Cathay Pacific airliner blew-up over Pleiku at 29k ft. We had
raining body parts on that deal.

Sure...and just about anyone who starts a/c engines can say the
same...fireguards are a waste of time...

I think it depends on the aircraft. Despite the extremely rare occurances, I
actually believe they serve a purpose during a BUFF engine start, at least for
#4 (the first engine started). In the BUFF, we have no APU and rely on an AGE
cart for starting #4 and # 5 engine. The carts are old (imagine that) and
generally not designed to spin your engines any higher than about 25% RPM, so
basically, until you have #4 on line, you have limited ability to motor out a
fire, which obviously increases your probability of needing fire retardant and
a fire guard.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

BUFDRVR wrote:

Sure...and just about anyone who starts a/c engines can say the
same...fireguards are a waste of time...

I think it depends on the aircraft. Despite the extremely rare occurances, I
actually believe they serve a purpose during a BUFF engine start, at least for
#4 (the first engine started). In the BUFF, we have no APU and rely on an AGE
cart for starting #4 and # 5 engine. The carts are old (imagine that) and
generally not designed to spin your engines any higher than about 25% RPM, so
basically, until you have #4 on line, you have limited ability to motor out a
fire, which obviously increases your probability of needing fire retardant and
a fire guard.

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Why do you start #4 & #5 first? Do they have more electrical/hydraulic capacity?

Given the age of those engines, I would want to start #1 & #8 first, in case they
blow up!

( The above includes both an honest question and a non serious smartass comment.)

Bob McKellar, who only had to start #1 on his own airplane long ago

Why do you start #4 & #5 first?

The sequence is; #4 then #5, then the rest. You could use #3 or #6 to start as
well, I'm guessing they just picked #4 because they needed to pick an inboard
engine and #4 was the closest to the watchful eyes of the Aircraft Commander
(I'm not really sure why they picked #4 out of the 4 they could have?)

You want to use inboard engines because the bleed air manifold connecting to
the outboard engines is only designed to have cooled air blown into it, not hot
air out of it. Basically, if you start #8, then run up #8 to start the rest,
you can over temp the "plumbing" leading from the #8 engine. Same is true for
#1, #2 and #7. On occasions, the manifold for one of the outboard engines will
stick open after the switch has been placed to CLOSED and either during the
anti-ice check, or initial takeoff you'll get a manifold overheat light. The
bad part is, you have no idea which engine and have to go through a little
"trial and error" to figure out which engine is the criminal. On takeoff the
light comes on immediately upon turning the air conditioning on (somewhere
prior to 10,000').



BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

From: "Gord Beaman" )
Date: 2/20/2004 7:35 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(BUFDRVR) wrote:

I've likely started
thousands of aircraft engines and NEVER had an engine fire on
start

I've started 8 engines at least 300 times (2400 starts) and I've only had 2
engine fires on start and one of them was a torch that the crew chief, in my
opinion, over reacted to.


BUFDRVR

Sure...and just about anyone who starts a/c engines can say the
same...fireguards are a waste of time...
--

-Gord.

On the other hand when an F-4E burns on engine start having a fire guard comes
in very handy getting the aircrew out safely. In the 2 years I was at Hahn AB
it happened only once as far as I recall. It justified the expense as far as I
am concerned. It was the only case of one of my aircraft in 20 years. It's a
small price to pay.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired