PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?

As luck would have it, the B-26 LBJ was on aborted before reaching the target
and being engaged by Zeros. So the citation for the SS is misleading. It's not
the only such citation that is not entirely accurate.

Thanks for confirming that. I remembered it as the case but didn't
have anything here to back it up.

And remember that Johnson got the Silver, not the Bronze.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

Look, what she went through obviously was not a good thing, I'm not
denying that. The POW Medal and Purple Heart are well deserved for
her experiences. The Purple Heart is for the injuries sustained
during the crash, and the POW medal is obviously for having to endure
being a POW. I imagine being a POW is never a fun experience, but
Lynch had it about as good as one can have it in that regard. She was
a POW in a hospital where Iraqi doctors were taking care of her. She
wasn't beaten, raped, shot or stabbed, and she was under *decent*
medical care according to our own medical personnel. Without a doubt,
her experience was a *far* better one compared to what some of the
other POW's had to go through, and most of them didn't get a BS. A
rescue would have been attempted for any of the POW's, had they had
intel on where they were at. Just because she was rescued doesn't
mean her POW situation was the worst one of all. It only means they
knew where she was. What, do you think the people that make those
decisions said "let's rescue Lynch because she's so bad off, but we'll
let the other POW's sit there and rot"? No, they rescued her because
they knew where the hell she was! Add to the fact that she's a young
girl that's somewhat pretty, and all of the sudden she's an American
hero. What a joke. Unlike most of you in this group (not all, but
most), I'm not talking out of my ass. I was in Afghanistan, and
recieved a Medal with a Combat "V" for Heroism. What I had to get it
was more harrowing than sitting in a hospital witing to be rescued.
Had I been a POW, I would have expected a POW medal. Had I been
injured, I would have expected a Purple Heart. But in order for me to
get a BS, I would have had to have done something else *other* than
those two things to deserve it. There isn't one person in this forum
that can tell me she did anything else *other* than get injured in an
auto accident that was caused by an RPG (Purple Heart covers this),
and then spend time as a POW (POW medal covers this) that is
completely seperate from those two specific intances. Anything heroic
*other* than those two things may constitute a BS, but there isn't
anything else that she did. You are supposed to get one medal for
each specific thing you do. You do *not* get two or three medals for
the same thing, as she did. What she did was already covered by the
PH and the POW. The fact that they threw a BS in the mix is nothing
but politics based on her being america's current sweetheart. Being
active duty military, everyone that I have ever spoken to (we have had
numerous discussion about this at work)understands this, and therefore
strongly disagrees with her recieving a BS. If she had done
something to deserve it, we would be more than happy to see her get
it, but that isn't the case. The only people that seem to agree with
her receiving the BS are civilians or retired military that have
*never* been in combat and do not understand how these things are
supposed to work. Also, my thoughts on this would be exactly tyhr
same if she were a male. I have seen (in the same conflict I was in),
senior officers recieve high medals for literally doing nothing but
being present in country. The were never part of any raids, they
never fired any shots, they didn't participate in any cave-hunts, they
didn't rescue anyone from a minefield.. They did nothing. Yet they
recieved medals that would cause someone that saw said medal, to
assume they had done somethng heroic. It's unfortunate that this
happens, but it does. PFC Lynch is yet another example of crappy
politics at work. Regardless of your *opinions* on this matter, the
*fact* is that PFC Lynch was awarded a medal she did not deserve.

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?
From: (M Power)
Date: 7/24/03 12:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
Subject: PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 7/24/03 2:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


"M Power" wrote in message
. com...

"M Power" wrote in message
om...
You're comparing apples to oranges. She got into a auto accident.

So you presumably think Lord Louis Mountbatten was killed
in a boating accident ?

Keith

Please put down the crack-pipe and speak sensibly. Thank you.



Your inability to post a substantive response is noted.

Keth




That analogy was over his head.I thought it was pretty clever. (grin)

It wasn't clever, nor was it over my head. An IRA bombing on a boat
has nothing to do with PFC Lynch since the only thing that happened to
her was an auto accident. She wasn't shot, she wasn't stabbed, she
wasn't beaten. Bad analogy and a bad argument.



Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Yeah they say she had a real fun time as a PW and a patient in an Iraqi Why did
they have to rush in and rescue her when she was having such a great time as a
captive? But since you went through the same experience you would know all
about that. Right?

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Keith - it doesn't matter *how* her vehicle was wrecked, she got a
Purple Heart for her injuries sustained from a vehicular accident.
Even if she wasn't in a vehicle and a RPG had landed near her and she
she was injured from frag or blast directly from the explosion, she
would and should recieve the same medal...a Purple Heart. The Bronze
Star is not deserved for anything she has done, as the other two
medals have covered everthing already.


"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"M Power" wrote in message
om...
(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...


That analogy was over his head.I thought it was pretty clever. (grin)

It wasn't clever, nor was it over my head. An IRA bombing on a boat
has nothing to do with PFC Lynch since the only thing that happened to
her was an auto accident. She wasn't shot, she wasn't stabbed, she
wasn't beaten. Bad analogy and a bad argument.


The auto accident was of course a result of a truck being hit
by an RPG, damm few drivers manage to retain control in
such circumstances, similarly few boaters manage to swim ashore
after their vessel is bombed.

The analogy is accurate.

Keith

She wasn't injured by an RPG directly (i.e., by frag or blast). She
was injured by the HMMWV crashing. Purposeful, accidental, RPG
frag/blast or crashing in a HMMWV...it does *not* matter....she was
injured in combat and was *appropriately* awarded a Purple Heart for
her injuries. Then she was *appropriately* awarded the POW medal for
being a Prisoner of War. The Bronze Star is *not* justified by any of
her actions (or lack thereof).


Chad Irby wrote in message .com...
(M Power) wrote:

It wasn't clever, nor was it over my head. An IRA bombing on a boat
has nothing to do with PFC Lynch since the only thing that happened to
her was an auto accident.

The Humvee she was riding in was hit by an RPG.

How in the *hell* do you call that an "accident?"

Subject: PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?
From: Cub Driver
Date: 7/25/03 2:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 24 Jul 2003 20:42:42 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

the plane in which Lieutenant Commander Johnson was an observer,
developed mechanical trouble and was forced to turn back alone,
presenting a favorable target to the enemy fighters, he evidenced
marked coolness in spite of the

Ya mean all you gotta do is get hit by fighters and you get a SIlver Star???
Where the hell is mine?

Well, Art, did you evidence marked coolness? That would be the key,
surely.

all the best -- Dan Ford

Ah Dan you have out your finger on it again. I wasn't all that cool. I guess
that is why I never got a Silver Star every time a fighter showed up.I shoulda
been cooler. I woulda had a hell of a lot of Silver Stars. (sheesh)


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"M Power" wrote in message
m...
Keith - it doesn't matter *how* her vehicle was wrecked, she got a
Purple Heart for her injuries sustained from a vehicular accident.

Of course it does, being injured in combat

Even if she wasn't in a vehicle and a RPG had landed near her and she
she was injured from frag or blast directly from the explosion, she
would and should recieve the same medal...a Purple Heart. The Bronze
Star is not deserved for anything she has done, as the other two
medals have covered everthing already.


Thats an assumption on your part, as far as I know the exact
grounds for the award of that medal havent been made public
nor has an accurate record of what she did.

The Pentagon regulation on awarding Bronze Stars says they can
be given to a military member who "distinguishes himself or
herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service"
under any of three circumstances:

"While engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States."
"While engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing
foreign force."
While serving with friendly foreign forces in which the United States is not
a belligerent party

As others have pointed out LBJ got a silver star just for being
in a plane that was shot at, he wasnt flying it and he wasnt hit.
In Kosovo Bronze Stars were awarded to people who never
entered a combat zone including an Air Force lieutenant colonel
who was leading a team of mechanics and maintenance crews at
Whiteman Air Force Base, Mo.

Also after the Kosovo operation the Navy awarded 69 Bronze Stars,
mostly to sailors aboard warships in the Adriatic and Ionian Seas.
At least four went to desk personnel in Naples, Italy.

In contrast Jessica Fletcher "While engaged in military operations
involving conflict with an opposing foreign force." received injuries that
will likely leave her in pain for the rest of her life, if a bronze star
helps her along the way I see no problem with that.

Keith

Subject: PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 7/25/03 7:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


"M Power" wrote in message
om...
Keith - it doesn't matter *how* her vehicle was wrecked, she got a
Purple Heart for her injuries sustained from a vehicular accident.

Of course it does, being injured in combat

Even if she wasn't in a vehicle and a RPG had landed near her and she
she was injured from frag or blast directly from the explosion, she
would and should recieve the same medal...a Purple Heart. The Bronze
Star is not deserved for anything she has done, as the other two
medals have covered everthing already.


Thats an assumption on your part, as far as I know the exact
grounds for the award of that medal havent been made public
nor has an accurate record of what she did.

The Pentagon regulation on awarding Bronze Stars says they can
be given to a military member who "distinguishes himself or
herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service"
under any of three circumstances:

"While engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States."
"While engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing
foreign force."
While serving with friendly foreign forces in which the United States is not
a belligerent party

As others have pointed out LBJ got a silver star just for being
in a plane that was shot at, he wasnt flying it and he wasnt hit.
In Kosovo Bronze Stars were awarded to people who never
entered a combat zone including an Air Force lieutenant colonel
who was leading a team of mechanics and maintenance crews at
Whiteman Air Force Base, Mo.

Also after the Kosovo operation the Navy awarded 69 Bronze Stars,
mostly to sailors aboard warships in the Adriatic and Ionian Seas.
At least four went to desk personnel in Naples, Italy.

In contrast Jessica Fletcher "While engaged in military operations
involving conflict with an opposing foreign force." received injuries that
will likely leave her in pain for the rest of her life, if a bronze star
helps her along the way I see no problem with that.

Keith



Absolutely correct. I would say that the only ones qualified to critisize her
BS are those who themselves have " engaged in military operations iinvolved in
coinflict with an opposing enemy force" The others should just shut up.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(M Power) wrote in message . com...
(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message . com...
(M Power) wrote in message . com...
(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message . com...
(M Power) wrote in message . com...

You are the one that is not making sense. In the Bosnia/Kosovo
campaign, only 204 Army BS were handed out. Out of those, only 25
enlisted Army soldiers recieved one. The lowest rank being an E-8.

Whoopie. So, are you now saying she did not deserve it because she was
not of a high enough grade? And what were those BS's awarded for?
Meritorious service, right? Usually with no involvement in ambushes,
injury, becoming a POW, acquiting oneself honorably under those
conditions, etc.?

Negative! A person of ANY grade should recieve a BS is they deserve
it. My point was that the only lower grade personnel that recieved it
did a hell of lot more than PFC Lynch did to get theirs. It's an
embarrassment to them, as well the medal, to give her one for her
*actions* when others have had to be in far more dangerous situations
than she wss in to recieve theirs.

LOL! How many BS winners, without "V"s, as her award was, have "had to
be in far more dangerous situations" than a freakin' *ambush* to get
those awards?! For gosh sakes--she got the same award they routinely
handed out to the vast *majority* of mid-level and higher officers
during ODS who never saw a shot fired in anger, and you want to break
her balls (or lack thereof)? Get real.

And I note the quick backpeddle you have performed regarding your
earlier claim that folks have been parachuting into DZ's and rescuing
pilots and getting less than the BS w/o V device....not exactly a big
surprise. Snipping your incorrect statements does not make them go
away...



They only recieved these for holding extremely high levels of
responsibility,

Bull poopie. The entire staff of my former BN (minus one single
individual) got the BS during ODS. I don't claim they did not deserve
that award (without V's), but the fact of the matter is that this was
a *theater level* engineer unit staff that spent the entire war in
Saudi Arabia. Folks in that unit as low as E-7 also received it, and
not one of them either faced an ambush or served a a PW.

All you have done is shown more prrof of how watered down the medal
has become. Giving one to PFC Lynch has added to this effect
immensely.

Crap. You still seem to have a real problem understanding that the BS
w/o V is, and has been for decades, a rather common award for
meritorious service during a period of conflict; it appears that what
normally rates an ARCOM during peacetime service gets the old BS if
you happen to find yourself in-theater. Lynch's award, without the V,
has only added to this "effect" in the minds of those who apparently
base their own selfworth on the ribbons and awards they have garnered,
and who can't seem to be able to read the requirements set forth in
the regs for its award.



or for saving someone's life. Jessica Lynch did none
of these thngs.

The latter would normally garner a "V", which she did not get. As to
meritorious service, your definition may vary with mileage, but the
fact of the matter is that a bunch of them have been awarded for more
mundane activities, and will be for the current operation--you can bet
on it.

She got a BS for purely political reasons.

How do you *know* that?

Because it's obvious.

The sun obviously rises and sets every day--does that make it
"obvious" that the sun is rotating around the earth instead of vice
versa?

She's become america's sweetheart. She's all
over the news, she was given a new car, she has a free ride to
college, and she'll probably have a book deal and make tons of money.
Do you live under a rock?

You sound terribly jealous and more than a bit petty over what she has
received. Remember that she did not ASK for any of this, from getting
wounded to receiving the BS. She did her duty, and by all accounts it
was performed honorably under conditions that most of us will never
encounter--that's good enough for me.



She
doesn't deserve to wear it,

Pardon me if I don't accept your whining as definitive proof of that.

The only whining here is from you. You're like a "no-nothing" sheep
that blindly follows the herd.

Funny, coming from a guy who can't seem to grasp that the BS w/o V is
not a decoration awarded for valor.

Because everyone else thinks she's a
hero, you think she's one as well. It's pretty funny, actually;-)

Nope, I don't think she is a hero; but then again, I don't think
anybody who has the BS w/o V is a "hero", not based upon that item
alone. Even the guys I persnally have known who had the V did not
think of themselves as "heroic"--are you getting this award mixed up
with the SS, DSC, and MOH, or for that matter the Soldier's Medal?


and the BS has been watered down even more
by her receiving it. Yep, as you've said, it really is that simple.

Then why can't you seem to *get* it? 'Nuff said. been fun, and the
plain fact is that tomorrow when we awaken Jessica will still have her
BS, and there is not a thing you can do about it (which given your
poor understanding of what the award really conotates is probably a
good thing....)

Have you ever been in combat?

Oh, boy! What are you, a graduate of the Art Kramer School of Those
Combat Qualified to Belittle the Efforts of Others?

Have you ever recieved a Combat "V" for
heroism?

Nope. Had some friends who did. Also served with some who did more
than they did and got zilch.

Well I *have*.

Ah....! Your reasoning now becomes clear! You have a BS w/V, and, not
realizing that the BS w/o V is routinely awarded for rather mundane
activities, feel that awarding Jessica the BS w/o V belittles your own
station in life. Don't worry; those who understand the awards system
will continue to recognize that the V denotes some degree of valor
involved in winning the award (but not necessarilly that you are a
self-designated "hero").

So my "understanding" far exceeds yours,

No, your paranoia regarding your own selfworth and the effect of Lynch
getting the BS upon it exceeds mine.

you
can be sure. As far as her having the award, this is true. But her
time in the military will be an uncomfortable one since anyone that
has been in combat (and some that have not) will never respect her for
recieving it, and I'm sure that feeling will be perfectly clear to
here every day she spends in active duty.

Uhmmm...you must have missed out on all those CIB's awarded during
recent conflicts to folks who never heard a shot fired in anger? If
you think her fellow soldiers are going to hold her receiving a BS
that she didn't ask for (there is a reason they are awarded via
"orders") against her, then you must have served with a different
breed of soldier from the ones I have been fortunate enough to have
served with.

Her best bet is to get out
whle she can, and take advantage of her new found fame, because she's
going to be nothing but a long running joke as long as she stays in.
By the way Brooks, the only reason I've attacked you in this email is
in direct response to your attacking me first. I would have been
perfectly fine discussing this politely as I have with other posters
on this forum. But since you've chosen to come across as a rude
"know-nothing" in your reply, I'm happy to treat you as such. Take
care.

I am amused when one who has such a fragile self-image that they have
to resort to trashing the efforts of others then tries to take the "I
am noble" route...I am afraid you are a bit late. You have gained
nothing by trying to belittle Lynch's efforts, you have presented
incorrect statements, and I hope you are going to be able to get over
this apparently terrible blow to your self-esteem. PFC Lynch has done
nothing to you, so why don't you just let it go?

Brooks

snip

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 7/25/03 7:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


"M Power" wrote in message
om...
Keith - it doesn't matter *how* her vehicle was wrecked, she got a
Purple Heart for her injuries sustained from a vehicular accident.

Of course it does, being injured in combat

Even if she wasn't in a vehicle and a RPG had landed near her and she
she was injured from frag or blast directly from the explosion, she
would and should recieve the same medal...a Purple Heart. The Bronze
Star is not deserved for anything she has done, as the other two
medals have covered everthing already.


Thats an assumption on your part, as far as I know the exact
grounds for the award of that medal havent been made public
nor has an accurate record of what she did.

The Pentagon regulation on awarding Bronze Stars says they can
be given to a military member who "distinguishes himself or
herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service"
under any of three circumstances:

"While engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States."
"While engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing
foreign force."
While serving with friendly foreign forces in which the United States is not
a belligerent party

As others have pointed out LBJ got a silver star just for being
in a plane that was shot at, he wasnt flying it and he wasnt hit.
In Kosovo Bronze Stars were awarded to people who never
entered a combat zone including an Air Force lieutenant colonel
who was leading a team of mechanics and maintenance crews at
Whiteman Air Force Base, Mo.

Also after the Kosovo operation the Navy awarded 69 Bronze Stars,
mostly to sailors aboard warships in the Adriatic and Ionian Seas.
At least four went to desk personnel in Naples, Italy.

In contrast Jessica Fletcher "While engaged in military operations
involving conflict with an opposing foreign force." received injuries that
will likely leave her in pain for the rest of her life, if a bronze star
helps her along the way I see no problem with that.

Keith



Absolutely correct. I would say that the only ones qualified to critisize her
BS are those who themselves have " engaged in military operations iinvolved in
coinflict with an opposing enemy force" The others should just shut up.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Well then I guess I'm the only here qualified to criticize her BS.
You all need to just shut up;-)

"M Power" wrote in message
om...
It's unfortunate that this
happens, but it does. PFC Lynch is yet another example of crappy
politics at work. Regardless of your *opinions* on this matter, the
*fact* is that PFC Lynch was awarded a medal she did not deserve.

Which was my original point. I'm not trying to excoriate Lynch, it's just
depressing to see medals like Bronze Stars handed out for soldiers just
doing their jobs. I felt the same way about the 3 dolts who got captured
during the Kosovo conflict. Lynch certainly did not ask for the attention or
the medal. In fact, I'm sure she'd have rather just been sent back to the US
quietly. The Army is too busy touting her as some hero and basically
exploiting her for PR reasons.