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Beechcraft made in China



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 14th 12, 01:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,892
Default Beechcraft made in China

Carolyn Peters wrote:
On 7/13/2012 3:34 PM, wrote:
Carolyn Peters wrote:
Airbus builds aircraft in China and will soon do so in the US. Has
certification been an impediment?


Not so far, but you missed the point and Airbus isn't a Chinese company.



The point is manufacturing aircraft in China.


No, the point was a rebuttal to "...there won't be anything American
about Beech except the name..".

You claimed, "Given the way aircraft are certified, that isn't very
likely unless they recertify all the existing aircraft, which would be
very stupid and the Chinese are not stupid."

Please elaborate what certification standards you are talking about and
why producing Beechcraft/Hawkers by a Chinese company in America would
be different than producing Beechcraft/Hawkers by a Chinese company in
China.


OK, I'll elaborate a bit.

Unless the Chinese start building all the bits and pieces that make up
the existing airplanes and get those bits and pieces FAA approved, and
get the aircraft paperwork amended to use all those Chinese bits and
pieces, existing aircraft are going to be pretty much exactly the same
as they are now.

Also, while parts of the manufacturing may go to China, not all of it
is going to China according to the news.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news...0 6946-1.html

They will still be "American" airplanes build by a company with corporate
headquarters in China.

Since the bit and pieces market is a low volume niche market, and the Chinese
generally don't have much interest in low volume niche markets, it is
unlikely that new designs will use anything other than the suppliers
used now, which are largely American.

Also, while parts of the manufacturing may go to China, not all of it
is going to China according to the news.

You also failed to read or didn't understand my last sentence, so I'll
repeat it.

Beech is no more going to be "Chinese" than Budweiser, Michelob, and
Corona Extra have become Belgian-Brazilian.



  #12  
Old July 14th 12, 07:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Mxsmanic
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Posts: 9,169
Default Beechcraft made in China

george152 writes:

Chinese technology is as good as anywhere else.


In part because a lot of it comes directly from the United States, both
legally and illegally.
  #13  
Old July 14th 12, 09:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
george152
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Posts: 158
Default Beechcraft made in China

Mxsmanic wrote:
george152 writes:

Chinese technology is as good as anywhere else.


In part because a lot of it comes directly from the United States, both
legally and illegally.


Oh?
I'll bet that your world has the Made in China trademark all over it.
  #14  
Old July 15th 12, 11:46 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Mxsmanic
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Posts: 9,169
Default Beechcraft made in China

george152 writes:

I'll bet that your world has the Made in China trademark all over it.


Quite so, but that doesn't mean that the Chinese developed the technology that
they are using to make things.

A key goal of all agreements the Chinese sign with foreigners is transfer of
technology. Some American managers seem not to realize that if you transfer
all of your manufacturing and all of your technology to partners in China,
there is no longer any need for managers in America, and the Chinese partners
can simply start selling goods directly. This is what Dell and other companies
discovered the hard way.
  #15  
Old July 15th 12, 10:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Orval Fairbairn
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Posts: 824
Default Beechcraft made in China

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

george152 writes:

I'll bet that your world has the Made in China trademark all over it.


Quite so, but that doesn't mean that the Chinese developed the technology that
they are using to make things.

A key goal of all agreements the Chinese sign with foreigners is transfer of
technology. Some American managers seem not to realize that if you transfer
all of your manufacturing and all of your technology to partners in China,
there is no longer any need for managers in America, and the Chinese partners
can simply start selling goods directly. This is what Dell and other companies
discovered the hard way.


I have a friend who makes and sells pool equipment, some of which is
made in China. He says that you have to have different parts made by
different companies, else the Chinese company will start making clones
and undercut you.
  #16  
Old July 18th 12, 01:47 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Carolyn Peters
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default Beechcraft made in China

On 7/13/2012 8:01 PM, Robert Barker wrote:
Yep. The modern Republicans are attacking education. The dumber they
make us, the less informed they keep us, the more likely we are to vote
Republican. Republicans of 40 years ago would be SCREAMING at what the
current leaders are doing to their party...


Speaking of education, do you think it's possible that you might learn
what rec.aviation.piloting refers to? Looks like you got your parties
backwards! :-)
  #17  
Old July 18th 12, 01:55 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Carolyn Peters
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default Beechcraft made in China

On 7/13/2012 8:29 PM, wrote:
Carolyn Peters wrote:
On 7/13/2012 3:34 PM,
wrote:
Carolyn Peters wrote:
Airbus builds aircraft in China and will soon do so in the US. Has
certification been an impediment?

Not so far, but you missed the point and Airbus isn't a Chinese company.



The point is manufacturing aircraft in China.


No, the point was a rebuttal to "...there won't be anything American
about Beech except the name..".

You claimed, "Given the way aircraft are certified, that isn't very
likely unless they recertify all the existing aircraft, which would be
very stupid and the Chinese are not stupid."

Please elaborate what certification standards you are talking about and
why producing Beechcraft/Hawkers by a Chinese company in America would
be different than producing Beechcraft/Hawkers by a Chinese company in
China.


OK, I'll elaborate a bit.

Unless the Chinese start building all the bits and pieces that make up
the existing airplanes and get those bits and pieces FAA approved, and
get the aircraft paperwork amended to use all those Chinese bits and
pieces, existing aircraft are going to be pretty much exactly the same
as they are now.


They (new owners) presumably will own the type certificates. As long as
the parts are built according to their certification requirements, they
will be just fine. Likewise, Airbus can (is) building aircraft in
China. Sure they will be assembling structures that are built in Europe
(at the moment) but they can also build parts where they please.


Also, while parts of the manufacturing may go to China, not all of it
is going to China according to the news.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news...0 6946-1.html

They will still be "American" airplanes build by a company with corporate
headquarters in China.

Since the bit and pieces market is a low volume niche market, and the Chinese
generally don't have much interest in low volume niche markets, it is
unlikely that new designs will use anything other than the suppliers
used now, which are largely American.


The point is that the new owner can start making money selling Wichita
built airplanes now, even if it probably won't be much money on the
Beechcraft side, save the King Air. But you can bet that the owners
will be learning manufacturing techniques, designs, what it took to
certify the airplane etc. which is infinitely more valuable than selling
Barons. It is a very long term decision.

Also, while parts of the manufacturing may go to China, not all of it
is going to China according to the news.


Maybe, maybe not. It's too early to tell what will happen. I doubt
even the new owners have finalized their 5,10, year etc. plans.

You also failed to read or didn't understand my last sentence, so I'll
repeat it.


That assertion is incorrect.

Beech is no more going to be "Chinese" than Budweiser, Michelob, and
Corona Extra have become Belgian-Brazilian.





  #18  
Old July 18th 12, 02:18 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,892
Default Beechcraft made in China

Carolyn Peters wrote:
On 7/13/2012 8:29 PM, wrote:
Carolyn Peters wrote:
On 7/13/2012 3:34 PM,
wrote:
Carolyn Peters wrote:
Airbus builds aircraft in China and will soon do so in the US. Has
certification been an impediment?

Not so far, but you missed the point and Airbus isn't a Chinese company.


The point is manufacturing aircraft in China.


No, the point was a rebuttal to "...there won't be anything American
about Beech except the name..".

You claimed, "Given the way aircraft are certified, that isn't very
likely unless they recertify all the existing aircraft, which would be
very stupid and the Chinese are not stupid."

Please elaborate what certification standards you are talking about and
why producing Beechcraft/Hawkers by a Chinese company in America would
be different than producing Beechcraft/Hawkers by a Chinese company in
China.


OK, I'll elaborate a bit.

Unless the Chinese start building all the bits and pieces that make up
the existing airplanes and get those bits and pieces FAA approved, and
get the aircraft paperwork amended to use all those Chinese bits and
pieces, existing aircraft are going to be pretty much exactly the same
as they are now.


They (new owners) presumably will own the type certificates. As long as
the parts are built according to their certification requirements, they
will be just fine.


You do realize you have said the same thing I did in different words.


Likewise, Airbus can (is) building aircraft in
China. Sure they will be assembling structures that are built in Europe
(at the moment) but they can also build parts where they please.


Yes, their parts to their original specs; location of manufacture is of
little notice to the FAA, but who and how is.

Also, while parts of the manufacturing may go to China, not all of it
is going to China according to the news.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news...0 6946-1.html

They will still be "American" airplanes build by a company with corporate
headquarters in China.

Since the bit and pieces market is a low volume niche market, and the Chinese
generally don't have much interest in low volume niche markets, it is
unlikely that new designs will use anything other than the suppliers
used now, which are largely American.


The point is that the new owner can start making money selling Wichita
built airplanes now, even if it probably won't be much money on the
Beechcraft side, save the King Air.


I never said otherwise and in fact that is essentially what I did say.

But you can bet that the owners
will be learning manufacturing techniques, designs, what it took to
certify the airplane etc. which is infinitely more valuable than selling
Barons. It is a very long term decision.

Also, while parts of the manufacturing may go to China, not all of it
is going to China according to the news.


Maybe, maybe not. It's too early to tell what will happen. I doubt
even the new owners have finalized their 5,10, year etc. plans.

You also failed to read or didn't understand my last sentence, so I'll
repeat it.


That assertion is incorrect.


How, exactly?

Please elaborate how Beech aircraft are going to be Chinese and how to
tell the difference between a Chinese Beech and an American Beech.

Beech is no more going to be "Chinese" than Budweiser, Michelob, and
Corona Extra have become Belgian-Brazilian.

  #19  
Old July 20th 12, 01:19 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Carolyn Peters
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default Beechcraft made in China

On 7/17/2012 9:18 PM, wrote:
Carolyn Peters wrote:
On 7/13/2012 8:29 PM,
wrote:
Carolyn Peters wrote:
On 7/13/2012 3:34 PM,
wrote:
Carolyn Peters wrote:
Airbus builds aircraft in China and will soon do so in the US. Has
certification been an impediment?

Not so far, but you missed the point and Airbus isn't a Chinese company.


The point is manufacturing aircraft in China.

No, the point was a rebuttal to "...there won't be anything American
about Beech except the name..".

You claimed, "Given the way aircraft are certified, that isn't very
likely unless they recertify all the existing aircraft, which would be
very stupid and the Chinese are not stupid."

Please elaborate what certification standards you are talking about and
why producing Beechcraft/Hawkers by a Chinese company in America would
be different than producing Beechcraft/Hawkers by a Chinese company in
China.

OK, I'll elaborate a bit.

Unless the Chinese start building all the bits and pieces that make up
the existing airplanes and get those bits and pieces FAA approved, and
get the aircraft paperwork amended to use all those Chinese bits and
pieces, existing aircraft are going to be pretty much exactly the same
as they are now.


They (new owners) presumably will own the type certificates. As long as
the parts are built according to their certification requirements, they
will be just fine.


You do realize you have said the same thing I did in different words.


If you agree, that is great. If not, I don't mind too much.


Likewise, Airbus can (is) building aircraft in
China. Sure they will be assembling structures that are built in Europe
(at the moment) but they can also build parts where they please.


Yes, their parts to their original specs; location of manufacture is of
little notice to the FAA, but who and how is.

Also, while parts of the manufacturing may go to China, not all of it
is going to China according to the news.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news...0 6946-1.html

They will still be "American" airplanes build by a company with corporate
headquarters in China.

Since the bit and pieces market is a low volume niche market, and the Chinese
generally don't have much interest in low volume niche markets, it is
unlikely that new designs will use anything other than the suppliers
used now, which are largely American.


The point is that the new owner can start making money selling Wichita
built airplanes now, even if it probably won't be much money on the
Beechcraft side, save the King Air.


I never said otherwise and in fact that is essentially what I did say.


Perfect.


But you can bet that the owners
will be learning manufacturing techniques, designs, what it took to
certify the airplane etc. which is infinitely more valuable than selling
Barons. It is a very long term decision.

Also, while parts of the manufacturing may go to China, not all of it
is going to China according to the news.


Maybe, maybe not. It's too early to tell what will happen. I doubt
even the new owners have finalized their 5,10, year etc. plans.






You also failed to read or didn't understand my last sentence, so I'll
repeat it.


That assertion is incorrect.


How, exactly?


It is a false dichotomy--and both of your statements are incorrect.

Please elaborate how Beech aircraft are going to be Chinese and how to
tell the difference between a Chinese Beech and an American Beech.


Well there are at least two possible cases--Chinese Beechcraft built in
the US, and (perhaps someday) Chinese Beechcraft built in China.

For the latter, you would tell the difference by the same way that you
determine if a Toyata sedan is assembled in America or in Japan, by
looking at the point of origin. Strangely, by some government
definitions, a Toyota assembled in Alabama is a "foreign," while a
Chrysler assembled in Ontario is "domestic."

But the fact remains, Beechcraft is a Chinese company as of the sale
date (assuming it goes through). I believe Cirrus Design (Cirrus
Aircraft) already is.

  #20  
Old July 20th 12, 02:26 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,892
Default Beechcraft made in China

Carolyn Peters wrote:
On 7/17/2012 9:18 PM, wrote:
Carolyn Peters wrote:
On 7/13/2012 8:29 PM,
wrote:
Carolyn Peters wrote:
On 7/13/2012 3:34 PM,
wrote:
Carolyn Peters wrote:
Airbus builds aircraft in China and will soon do so in the US. Has
certification been an impediment?

Not so far, but you missed the point and Airbus isn't a Chinese company.


The point is manufacturing aircraft in China.

No, the point was a rebuttal to "...there won't be anything American
about Beech except the name..".

You claimed, "Given the way aircraft are certified, that isn't very
likely unless they recertify all the existing aircraft, which would be
very stupid and the Chinese are not stupid."

Please elaborate what certification standards you are talking about and
why producing Beechcraft/Hawkers by a Chinese company in America would
be different than producing Beechcraft/Hawkers by a Chinese company in
China.

OK, I'll elaborate a bit.

Unless the Chinese start building all the bits and pieces that make up
the existing airplanes and get those bits and pieces FAA approved, and
get the aircraft paperwork amended to use all those Chinese bits and
pieces, existing aircraft are going to be pretty much exactly the same
as they are now.

They (new owners) presumably will own the type certificates. As long as
the parts are built according to their certification requirements, they
will be just fine.


You do realize you have said the same thing I did in different words.


If you agree, that is great. If not, I don't mind too much.


I guess you don't agree realize it, either that or you have to have the
last word.

Likewise, Airbus can (is) building aircraft in
China. Sure they will be assembling structures that are built in Europe
(at the moment) but they can also build parts where they please.


Yes, their parts to their original specs; location of manufacture is of
little notice to the FAA, but who and how is.

Also, while parts of the manufacturing may go to China, not all of it
is going to China according to the news.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news...0 6946-1.html

They will still be "American" airplanes build by a company with corporate
headquarters in China.

Since the bit and pieces market is a low volume niche market, and the Chinese
generally don't have much interest in low volume niche markets, it is
unlikely that new designs will use anything other than the suppliers
used now, which are largely American.

The point is that the new owner can start making money selling Wichita
built airplanes now, even if it probably won't be much money on the
Beechcraft side, save the King Air.


I never said otherwise and in fact that is essentially what I did say.


Perfect.


Perfect what?

That you now understand that I never said otherwise or that in fact that is
essentially what I did say, or that you have to have the last word?

will be learning manufacturing techniques, designs, what it took to
certify the airplane etc. which is infinitely more valuable than selling
Barons. It is a very long term decision.

Also, while parts of the manufacturing may go to China, not all of it
is going to China according to the news.

Maybe, maybe not. It's too early to tell what will happen. I doubt
even the new owners have finalized their 5,10, year etc. plans.






You also failed to read or didn't understand my last sentence, so I'll
repeat it.

That assertion is incorrect.


How, exactly?


It is a false dichotomy--and both of your statements are incorrect.

Please elaborate how Beech aircraft are going to be Chinese and how to
tell the difference between a Chinese Beech and an American Beech.


Well there are at least two possible cases--Chinese Beechcraft built in
the US, and (perhaps someday) Chinese Beechcraft built in China.

For the latter, you would tell the difference by the same way that you
determine if a Toyata sedan is assembled in America or in Japan, by
looking at the point of origin. Strangely, by some government
definitions, a Toyota assembled in Alabama is a "foreign," while a
Chrysler assembled in Ontario is "domestic."

But the fact remains, Beechcraft is a Chinese company as of the sale
date (assuming it goes through). I believe Cirrus Design (Cirrus
Aircraft) already is.


You didn't address how Budweiser is now Belgian-Brazilian.

That's OK as I've come to realize you have limited grasp of colloquial
speech.



 




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