Motorgliders on OLC?

I would like to see how many points the motorglider guys would end up scoring if their motor was rendered unavailable after launch. A friend of mine couldn't get his motor started one day, so he took an aero tow, and his flying was much different that day. It's just not the same when you know you can crank up that iron thermal an motor home any time you want. It's definitely not a level playing field.

Boggs

On Apr 29, 8:30*am, Waveguru wrote:
I would like to see how many points the motorglider guys would end up scoring if their motor was rendered unavailable after launch. * A friend of mine couldn't get his motor started one day, so he took an aero tow, and his flying was much different that day. *It's just not the same when you know you can crank up that iron thermal an motor home any time you want. It's definitely not a level playing field.

Boggs

Boy, there's a troll if I ever heard one. I disagree. That's as much
of a nibble as you're going to get out of me. You should know better
Gary.

On Monday, April 29, 2013 10:13:48 AM UTC-5, 4Z wrote:
On Apr 29, 8:30*am, Waveguru wrote: I would like to see how many points the motorglider guys would end up scoring if their motor was rendered unavailable after launch. * A friend of mine couldn't get his motor started one day, so he took an aero tow, and his flying was much different that day. *It's just not the same when you know you can crank up that iron thermal an motor home any time you want. It's definitely not a level playing field. Boggs Boy, there's a troll if I ever heard one. I disagree. That's as much of a nibble as you're going to get out of me.. You should know better Gary.

probably no more of an advantage than a pilot who has a crew ready and willing to come get them if they land out.

perhaps OLC needs a "crewless" category

On Monday, April 29, 2013 11:25:14 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
On Monday, April 29, 2013 10:13:48 AM UTC-5, 4Z wrote:

On Apr 29, 8:30*am, Waveguru wrote: I would like to see how many points the motorglider guys would end up scoring if their motor was rendered unavailable after launch. * A friend of mine couldn't get his motor started one day, so he took an aero tow, and his flying was much different that day. *It's just not the same when you know you can crank up that iron thermal an motor home any time you want. It's definitely not a level playing field. Boggs Boy, there's a troll if I ever heard one. I disagree. That's as much of a nibble as you're going to get out of me. You should know better Gary.



probably no more of an advantage than a pilot who has a crew ready and willing to come get them if they land out.



perhaps OLC needs a "crewless" category

I owned a PIK20E for a few years. I took huge risks that I wouldn't have without the motor (as far as landing out, and some stupid ones also). I learned more about XC soaring than I did in 20 years. You have to commit to a airport or a good field at a higher altitude than without a motor, and the glider climbed slow in weak conditions. I definitely fly more conservative (as far as risking landing out) without a motor. In competition a motor is probably not as much of an advantage because of the higher altitude commitment for landing out. But, for recreational flying it sure was nice.

Ed

Yes, I was hoping to start a discussion. If that's trolling, then I guess I'm guilty as charged. I do think it is not even close to the same thing psychologically. There is a BIG difference between cranking up the motor, as opposed to landing In a field, and having a crew come and get you. Landing out is a much bigger deterrent, and keeps us from stretching as far as we might if we had a motor. I saw it clearly in my buddy that couldn't get his motor to start, and had to take a tow. And how many of us fly with a "crew" waiting to come and get us? I think I would look forward to landing out if I had Ramy's beautiful wife to come and get me!...

Flame retardant ready...

Boggs

On Monday, April 29, 2013 9:30:09 AM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
I would like to see how many points the motorglider guys would end up scoring if their motor was rendered unavailable after launch. Blah blah blah. It's definitely not a level playing field. Boggs

You are right, Gary. The playing field isn't level. And my flights in mid-west thermals can't compete on a level playing field with Ely thermals, Minden Wave Days, Parowan thermal days, or east coast ridge days, either.

Now, when I go to Moriarty...

On 4/29/2013 12:28 PM, Steve Leonard wrote:
On Monday, April 29, 2013 9:30:09 AM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
I would like to see how many points the motorglider guys would end
up scoring if their motor was rendered unavailable after launch.
Blah blah blah. It's definitely not a level playing field. Boggs

You are right, Gary. The playing field isn't level. And my flights
in mid-west thermals can't compete on a level playing field with Ely
thermals, Minden Wave Days, Parowan thermal days, or east coast ridge
days, either

It's true that having an easy retrieve, whether it's by an eager crew
person or a motor, will make a pilot bolder. But the performance of the
glider will also change how you fly. For example, would a pilot's flying
change if he was plucked from a Blanik and dropped into an ASG 29? Or
from Nimbus 4 into a 1-26? Oh, you betcha!

And how about launch methods? Would what the pilot could achieve change
if he had aero-tows available instead of a 1000' car launch? Suppose the
pilot is retired and can fly any day, lives 2 miles from the airport
instead 150 miles, and so on?

Equipment does make a difference, as do life circumstances and location.
Even though it's the OLC is a handicapped contest, there is no way for
the handicap system to provide a level playing field for all variations
in circumstances.

So, for people that think the retrieve problem is holding them back, get
a glider with a motor. No cash? Follow Henry Combs example, and burnish
your personality to a warm glow that convinces people to crew for you
every weekend, week after week, year after year, which is what allowed
Henry to amass 200+ 500K straight out distance flights!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On Monday, April 29, 2013 4:02:50 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/29/2013 12:28 PM, Steve Leonard wrote:

On Monday, April 29, 2013 9:30:09 AM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:

I would like to see how many points the motorglider guys would end

up scoring if their motor was rendered unavailable after launch.

Blah blah blah. It's definitely not a level playing field. Boggs



You are right, Gary. The playing field isn't level. And my flights

in mid-west thermals can't compete on a level playing field with Ely

thermals, Minden Wave Days, Parowan thermal days, or east coast ridge

days, either



It's true that having an easy retrieve, whether it's by an eager crew

person or a motor, will make a pilot bolder. But the performance of the

glider will also change how you fly. For example, would a pilot's flying

change if he was plucked from a Blanik and dropped into an ASG 29? Or

from Nimbus 4 into a 1-26? Oh, you betcha!



And how about launch methods? Would what the pilot could achieve change

if he had aero-tows available instead of a 1000' car launch? Suppose the

pilot is retired and can fly any day, lives 2 miles from the airport

instead 150 miles, and so on?



Equipment does make a difference, as do life circumstances and location.

Even though it's the OLC is a handicapped contest, there is no way for

the handicap system to provide a level playing field for all variations

in circumstances.



So, for people that think the retrieve problem is holding them back, get

a glider with a motor. No cash? Follow Henry Combs example, and burnish

your personality to a warm glow that convinces people to crew for you

every weekend, week after week, year after year, which is what allowed

Henry to amass 200+ 500K straight out distance flights!



--

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to

email me)

There's a very lengthy discussion going on the Segelflug.de/forum (in German) regarding the question if motorglider and sustainer pilots should get an automatic handicap and how much of it. Since they have at least a factor of 10 or maybe 20 a multiple of these gliders vs. the US, the discussion is surely justified. They are pointing to the adventurous pilot who motors from the Bavarian flatlands into the Alps above the inversion to get an early start. Any honest motorglider pilot will tell you that they can take more risks in trying that really long task, flying till sunset but with the assurance of the aluminum thermal behind them. Especially in the OLC, there is doubtless a severe bonus for having an engine.
Herb

Gary is totally correct, though I believe the "issue" goes far deeper into the realm of pilot safety than being able to "motor home" at the end of the day.

I personally know of several pilots who have, and continue to place themselves in "low probability", unsafe positions (i.e., locations where the "outlanding" would be a crash), banking on the iron thermal to save them should their gamble fail to pay off. At least one Hilton Cup was earned this way. The advantage especially comes into play in the remotest locations on earth like the Namib Desert, the Andes and yes, perhaps the Great Basin where even a no-damage outlanding can be essentially irretrievable. I recall that Fossett et al scavenged some parts from an abandoned AS-H25 in the Andes. Even in relatively benign locations like the Sierra Nevada/White Mt's. corridor, a landing only a 200 km from home but east of the Whites is likely to be an all-night retrieve.

Anyone who believes that there is no "courage" in an engine is deluding themselves, even if the reliability of the engine is questionable. Rock climbers are similarly fortified by placing points of protection that they know will never hold a fall. Even with the sketchy engine systems of 1st and 2nd generation powerplants, pilots were/are commonly placing themselves at greater risk than they would have without the backstop of a motor.

Every agressive X-C motorglider pilot I know well enough to share the "dirty laundry" with has a "saved by the motor" story. Like: "the motor finally caught at 10 ft agl on final to an unlandable field" or "I thermaled away from less than 500 ft over unlandable terrain in the dark".

It is not a level playing field and will get even less so as engine reliability and aircraft performance at high wing loadings increases. The FAI recognizes this via its records classifications and I see no reason why OLC should not do the same. Finally, I think OLC has done a great service to safety by requiring pilots to fly within FAR's and documenting suboptimal pilot behavbiors for all to see and learn from.

On Monday, April 29, 2013 2:02:50 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/29/2013 12:28 PM, Steve Leonard wrote:

On Monday, April 29, 2013 9:30:09 AM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:

I would like to see how many points the motorglider guys would end

up scoring if their motor was rendered unavailable after launch.

Blah blah blah. It's definitely not a level playing field. Boggs



You are right, Gary. The playing field isn't level. And my flights

in mid-west thermals can't compete on a level playing field with Ely

thermals, Minden Wave Days, Parowan thermal days, or east coast ridge

days, either



It's true that having an easy retrieve, whether it's by an eager crew

person or a motor, will make a pilot bolder. But the performance of the

glider will also change how you fly. For example, would a pilot's flying

change if he was plucked from a Blanik and dropped into an ASG 29? Or

from Nimbus 4 into a 1-26? Oh, you betcha!



And how about launch methods? Would what the pilot could achieve change

if he had aero-tows available instead of a 1000' car launch? Suppose the

pilot is retired and can fly any day, lives 2 miles from the airport

instead 150 miles, and so on?



Equipment does make a difference, as do life circumstances and location.

Even though it's the OLC is a handicapped contest, there is no way for

the handicap system to provide a level playing field for all variations

in circumstances.



So, for people that think the retrieve problem is holding them back, get

a glider with a motor. No cash? Follow Henry Combs example, and burnish

your personality to a warm glow that convinces people to crew for you

every weekend, week after week, year after year, which is what allowed

Henry to amass 200+ 500K straight out distance flights!



--

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to

email me)



I predict this thread will set a record number of posts and views. I’ll confess upfront that I consider the term “motor-glider” an oxymoron, so you know my bias. That said, I believe there are several competitive advantages to having a motor for big OLC flights in the Great Basin. First, pilots often arrive back at base an hour or more before sunset, close their triangle, then try and decide how hard to push in the remaining lift. If you miscalculate, there is a world of difference between flipping a switch and motoring home and a ground retrieve way out in the desert even if you are lucky enough to have that magical “eager crew”. Second, and perhaps even worse, the best days often come back-to-back so an all-night retrieve can mean that the pure glider will miss some of the best conditions and the fat score that comes with it. I can personally attest to the extreme disappointment that come with that.

Clearly OLC cannot completely level the playing field in all respects ( geography, the life circumstances of the pilot, launch methods, etc.) But they could very easily handicap the motorglider vs. the pure glider for the distance portion of the OLC (not league, speed, etc.). The only real issue is by how much.

As long as we’re opening a can of worms, here’s another—glider flights utilizing class A airspace vs. glider flights below 18K.

Michael