USA - All students must show "papers"

Jim,

you weren't supposed to give that away; State Secret.

Chip



illspam (Jim Vincent) wrote in message ...
excellent and approved alternative:

www.whitehouse.org/homeland/tattoo.asp

Chip Fitzpatrick

Chip, is that to complement the micro chip encapsulated in your tongue ring
that you were showing off at the field last weekend?

Jim Vincent
N483SZ
illspam

Judy Ruprecht wrote in message ...
Comments to the TSA Docket are being accepted through
October 20. Electronic submission at: http://dmses.dot.gov/submit/


Comments filed to date are available online through:
http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchFormSimple.cfm
(Enter 19147 as the docket #)

Judy


It's good to see that several regular contributors to RAS have posted
comments. However there have not been nearly enough. If you don't
think this rule affects you, you need to read it and think again.
Anyone that flies a glider in US, anyone that instructs in gliders in
US, every glider FBO in US, and every glider club that provides
instruction in US will be negatively affected by this rule. Some
instructors, some clubs, and some FBO may well cease to operate
because of this rule.

Read it and speak up before it's too late.

Andy

In article ,
Chip Fitzpatrick wrote:
Where in this does it state that an existing pilot certificate is all
that is required???

* DOD or Federal Agency written certification attesting to the
Federal employee's US citizenship or nationality,

plus their government-issued photo ID.



I have a FAA issued pilot license and section VI says: Nationality - USA.
This is a federal agency written certification attesting to
my nationality.

I also carry a government-issued photo ID (my Calif. State driver's
license) on all flights, as required by 67 Fed. Reg. 65857 (October 28,2002).



"According to FAA Administrator Marion Blakey, FAA expects the most
commonly used photo ID will be a valid driver's license issued by a U.S.
state, the District of Columbia, or a U.S. territory or possession.
Other suitable forms of identification under the new rules include
a valid federal or state ID card, a U.S. Armed Forces' ID, credentials
that authorize access to airport secure areas, or other identification
that the FAA accepts."

When I train pilots, since I don't normally carry a photocopier with me,
I will use a small digital camera to make a "copy" of their
pilot license and appropriate photo ID. Yes it is a headache to then
ensure the digital picture I took is somewhere I can find it for 5 years.
But this is the best I can do.

Those who train foriegn pilots are worst hit.
Strawberry Aviation in Watsonville, CA, USA has lost a great deal of
business post 9/11 and expects to see worse. Hiro is the chief CFI there
and he has specialized in training Japanese pilots in the USA (they
fly from Japan to get the training, since it is so much cheaper).
I feel bad for him; he's providing a very worthwhile service.

For "rides" I'm not concerned, since these don't normally involve
the ridee touching the controls anyway.

On the other hand, student pilots coming out for the first day
(walk-ins) are a real challenge, since it is very unlikely
they will have citizen/nationality proof with them. And just like
car sales, I always feel I want to get them started, in a plane,
TODAY. This is definitely a "hassle" for them, and a business loss for me.


P.S. Does the license not apply because I'm not a "Federal employee?"
I'm gonna yawn at this nuance. If the FAA issued a license with
nationality info, and then tells me I shouldn't have relied upon that
for information, then I'm guessing there will be FAA employees with
more tempting necks on the chopping block than mine.
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

In article ,
Andy Durbin wrote:
Stewart Kissel wrote in message ...
Tom-

Dave C. at Mile-Hi said an existing license counts...I
just called him.



I suggest that he needs to read the rule. I hold an FAA pilot
certificate but under the rule I cannot recieve instruction without a
security check. I am a US resident alien.

Andy,

You are now caught in the switches. The feds have
made a rule that may eventually retract your license. Get your Flight
Review before Oct. 20th, and you may get to fly for another two years
without ending up in a prison camp in Cuba for the rest of your life.

As a 1/4 Canadian, I'm a bit disgusted by the US Federal government's
CYA attitude towards GA. Maybe time to fly north, eh?

Good luck to you. My best advice: join AOPA, I don't think they have
any citizenship requirements and if it weren't for them,
general aviation would be nothing but a secret club working on better
anti-radar aircraft materials...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Dave Martin wrote:

When it comes to small aircraft especially gliders
then it appears heavy handed and ill thought out. The
politicians as usual not knowing their 8rse from their
elbow and shoving a cork up their 8rse to prevent diarrhoea.

LOL! Yes. I'd like to see AOPA and maybe SSA petition for relief
for "light" aircraft. Perhaps Light Sport Aircraft?
Under the idea that with such a low weight and slow
speed they pose little threat.

Given the unregulation of hang gliders, this seems like
not much of a stretch...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

In article ,
Judy Ruprecht wrote:
Comments to the TSA Docket are being accepted through
October 20. Electronic submission at: http://dmses.dot.gov/submit/


Comments filed to date are available online through:
http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchFormSimple.cfm
(Enter 19147 as the docket #)

The docket includes the following from SSA:

- Request for delayed implementation, for lack of means
to comply with the new rules & procedures ill-suited
to GA, particularly soaring

- Formal comments outlining rationale to amend the
new rules as applicable to GA, particularly soaring.
(There were inadvertently two copies of this posted...
one on letterhead and one without. Bodes well for my
'recordkeeping' skills, eh?)

- Petition for waiver from 49 USC 1552.

Thanks Judy, my 2 cents went in.

Does anybody have a copy of the Simpson's episode
where Sideshow Bob crashes the Wright Flyer into
a building? I'd like to make a few dozen copies of this
labeled "The True Dangers of General Aviation Light Aircraft"
and send them to various FSDOs and TSA authorities.

There's nothing like mockery to make a (valid) point...

And if you don't like my ideas, please don't retaliate
with jello mix in my ballast tanks, ok? :PPP
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Mark James Boyd wrote:

Those who train foriegn pilots are worst hit.

...training Japanese pilots in the USA...is so much cheaper.


Perhaps it is not necessarily in the best interests of the US that
Japanese or other foreigners find cheap aviation training here.

A particular business is affected negatively by necessary security
requirements? So sorry, but stuff happens.

Strengthening the competitive capabilities of foreign airlines or
enhancing the careers of their employees doesn't seem like something we
should be doing.


Jack

Jack wrote:
Mark James Boyd wrote:

Those who train foriegn pilots are worst hit.


...training Japanese pilots in the USA...is so much cheaper.



Perhaps it is not necessarily in the best interests of the US that
Japanese or other foreigners find cheap aviation training here.

And why not? Some of them will buy and fly US aircraft, other folks will
call them tourists.


A particular business is affected negatively by necessary security
requirements? So sorry, but stuff happens.

But if the requirements are useless? That stuff shouldn't happen.


Strengthening the competitive capabilities of foreign airlines or
enhancing the careers of their employees doesn't seem like something we
should be doing.

Lighten up - they aren't being trained in Airbuses. It's Boeings and
Cessnas! "Strengthening the competitive capabilities of foreign
airlines" is a good thing if their airlines buy Boeing airplanes. There
are many Japanese pilots trained at Moses Lake, Washington (state), in
the 747s they are buying. I don't mind dodging these guys as I fly my
glider past the airport there.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Jack wrote:
Mark James Boyd wrote:

Those who train foriegn pilots are worst hit.


...training Japanese pilots in the USA...is so much cheaper.



Perhaps it is not necessarily in the best interests of the US that
Japanese or other foreigners find cheap aviation training here.

A particular business is affected negatively by necessary security
requirements? So sorry, but stuff happens.

Strengthening the competitive capabilities of foreign airlines or
enhancing the careers of their employees doesn't seem like something we
should be doing.


Jack
Scuse me while I shoot myself in the other foot...

The political hoopla and nationalistic fervour over in the USA is amusing from a
distance - clearly freedom is just a nice idea on a piece of paper.

Simple economics by the way here - Mike Beachyhead in Cape Town runs one of two
heavy jet test pilot schools in the world. He can't keep up at present , you can
guess why. Pilot follows a very simple procedure to present credentials. Flies
into Cape Town international - taxis right past the row of black painted
military hardware. Clears customs and goes flying. Costs a hell of a lot less
than in the USA, weather is generally predictable, location is a lot nicer than
the US alternative and he never gets the third degree "we dont trust foreigners"
treatment. Ditto for the other flying schools.

On the gliding front - Europeans find they can fly in, have two weeks of family
holiday and have a soaring safari, for less than the cost of a week in
{substitute any popular European resort}

All I can see from all this red tape and hypocrisy is a weakening of the
training institutions and increasing costs. Some will exit the business, a lot
of folk will decide the effort is not worth it and give up, or never take up
flying, and the country will be poorer for it. I suppose the current incumbents
at FAA will have less real work to do into the bargain, for a while. But with
decreasing activity will come decreasing budgets (you can't beat the security
drum forever) Some years ago there was no question about what country led the
world in general aviation, light aircraft manufacture, was home to the EAA etc.
Now, the options are much wider, and cheaper, and often better in places like
Poland, and Slovenia and even tiny economies like New Zealand and South Africa.
A bit sad really.

Mark, read the reg again. As a US citizen you will be required to
prove your citizenship with original "papers" such as birth
certificate, passport, or naturalization certificate every time you
meet a new CFI. This CFI must make a copy and hopefully store it
where it won't get stolen for identity theft. See below for excerpt
of regulation.

If your CFI is a foreign national, he still has to do this, along with
himself going through the 3rd degree and $130 each time he wants
instruction. So the TSA trusts this foreigh national with your
identity, but not with taking flight lessons.

Granted it's a stretch, but I think the pilot community in the USA is
experiencing the first signs of what the non-Arian population of
pre-WWII Germany felt.

-Tom

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin

"As long as it's just the other guy losing his freedoms, I don't care.
But when it's my turn, I sure hope there's someone left to help me!"
Stupid Populace

(h) U.S. citizens and nationals and Department of Defense
endorsees. A flight school must determine whether an individual is a
citizen or national of the United States, or a Department of Defense
endorsee, prior to providing flight training to the individual.
(1) U.S. citizens and nationals. To establish U.S. citizenship or
nationality an individual must present to the flight school his or
her:
(i) Valid, unexpired United States passport;
(ii) Original or government-issued certified birth certificate of
the United States, American Samoa, or Swains Island, together with a
government-issued picture identification of the individual;
(iii) Original United States naturalization certificate with
raised
seal, or a Certificate of Naturalization issued by the U.S.
Citizenship
and Immigration Services (USCIS) or the U.S. Immigration and
Naturalization Service (INS) (Form N-550 or Form N-570), together with
a government-issued picture identification of the individual;
(iv) Original certification of birth abroad with raised seal, U.S.
Department of State Form FS-545, or U.S. Department of State Form DS-
1350, together with a government-issued picture identification of the
individual;
(v) Original certificate of United States citizenship with raised
seal, a Certificate of United States Citizenship issued by the USCIS
or
INS (Form N-560 or Form N-561), or a Certificate of Repatriation
issued
by the USCIS or INS (Form N-581), together with a government-issued
picture identification of the individual; or
(vi) In the case of flight training provided to a Federal employee
(including military personnel) pursuant to a contract between a
Federal
agency and a flight school, the agency's written certification as to
its employee's United States citizenship or nationality, together with
the employee's government-issued credentials or other Federally-issued
picture identification.


(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:416dab5f$1@darkstar...
In article ,
Chip Fitzpatrick wrote:
Where in this does it state that an existing pilot certificate is all
that is required???

* DOD or Federal Agency written certification attesting to the
Federal employee's US citizenship or nationality,

plus their government-issued photo ID.



I have a FAA issued pilot license and section VI says: Nationality - USA.
This is a federal agency written certification attesting to
my nationality.
... etc ...