1 Fatal ...r.a.h or r.a.p?

"Mark Hickey" wrote in message
...
"Wayne Paul" wrote:

You must also keep in mind that the turn radius of a 45 degree bank at 50
kts is only 250 feet.

But how many aircraft will continue flying at 50 kts in a 45 degree
bank? Not many, I'd wager...

Mark,

The example was for a moderate performance glider which, at 50 kts, can make
a 180 degree turn in less than 10 seconds. Most sailplanes circle in
thermals with bank angles of 45 degrees, or higher, at around 50 kts. The
following links show the specifications for my Schreder HP-14 homebuilt
sailplane.
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP...ifications.htm

Links to pictures of my HP-14.
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP...Test_Ready.jpg
http://www.soaridaho.com/photogaller.../17900_MSL.jpg
http://www.soaridaho.com/photogaller...r_Mt_Range.jpg

Wayne
HP-14 N990 "6F"

But how many aircraft will continue flying at 50 kts in a 45 degree
bank? Not many, I'd wager...

I wouldn't make any bets on that. Since you used the word "aircraft" which
includes gliders and not "airplane", the answer is tens of thousands of
gliders will do that.

Typically, ~25% of a gliders flight time will be flown in a 45 degree bank
circling in thermals. The rest will be in 'high' (100 Kts) speed cruise
between thermals. My Nimbus will fly quite happily in a 45 degree bank at
40 Kts while sinking 120 FPM. That circle is 300 feet in diameter.

Turning back to the departure runway from 200 feet AGL will leave the glider
WAY above glidepath requiring heavy airbrake use to avoid overshooting the
runway.

In straight flight, my Nimbus doesn't so much stall as it just flies so slow
that the controls lose their grip on the air. The big wing just keeps
flying.

Bill Daniels

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
. ..
But how many aircraft will continue flying at 50 kts in a 45 degree
bank? Not many, I'd wager...

I wouldn't make any bets on that. Since you used the word "aircraft"
which
includes gliders and not "airplane", the answer is tens of thousands of
gliders will do that.

Typically, ~25% of a gliders flight time will be flown in a 45 degree bank
circling in thermals. The rest will be in 'high' (100 Kts) speed cruise
between thermals. My Nimbus will fly quite happily in a 45 degree bank at

40 Kts while sinking 120 FPM. That circle is 300 feet in diameter.

Turning back to the departure runway from 200 feet AGL will leave the
glider
WAY above glidepath requiring heavy airbrake use to avoid overshooting the
runway.

In straight flight, my Nimbus doesn't so much stall as it just flies so
slow
that the controls lose their grip on the air. The big wing just keeps
flying.


Bill,

Which Nimbus version do fly? (Wing span?)

I need to come to Colorado and get winch qualified. I think winch launches
in my HP-14 would be a "blast!!"

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

"Wayne Paul" wrote in message
...

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
. ..
But how many aircraft will continue flying at 50 kts in a 45 degree
bank? Not many, I'd wager...

I wouldn't make any bets on that. Since you used the word "aircraft"
which
includes gliders and not "airplane", the answer is tens of thousands of
gliders will do that.

Typically, ~25% of a gliders flight time will be flown in a 45 degree
bank
circling in thermals. The rest will be in 'high' (100 Kts) speed cruise
between thermals. My Nimbus will fly quite happily in a 45 degree bank
at

40 Kts while sinking 120 FPM. That circle is 300 feet in diameter.

Turning back to the departure runway from 200 feet AGL will leave the
glider
WAY above glidepath requiring heavy airbrake use to avoid overshooting
the
runway.

In straight flight, my Nimbus doesn't so much stall as it just flies so
slow
that the controls lose their grip on the air. The big wing just keeps
flying.


Bill,

Which Nimbus version do fly? (Wing span?)

I need to come to Colorado and get winch qualified. I think winch
launches
in my HP-14 would be a "blast!!"

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder


I fly a Nimbus 2C with winglets (soon).

Winch launch is a blast. Short of a carrier catapult or a space shuttle
launch, it's the most acceleration you will ever experience in an aircraft.
(0 - 60 in 2 - 3 seconds.)

I know nothing about the HP-14's characteristics on a winch launch. I'd
suggest youi discuss it with someone who does. I think that Dick Schreder
designed them exclusively for air tow so, whicle it may work just fine,
there might be issues.

Bill Daniels

"Roger" wrote

The only way to do that is to never get in an airplane. Here we only
have one runway out of four that really gives you an out and even then
you are looking at merging with express way traffic, IF you can make
it over, or under the over pass.

Engines quit, even new ones. Some times they give warning and a lot
of times they don't. Mine quit on take off with no warning, not even
a hiccup. It went from full power to silence all of a sudden.

You will have to excuse "tater shouldn't" - he's our new troll. of the
month.
--
Jim in NC

"Roger" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 10:12:53 -0600, "Tater Schuld"
wrote:

I dont know. doing this at altitude makes the manuver safe, and learning
to
perfect it that way can give the pilot overconfidence.

best to make sure your'e never in the situation that call for such a

The only way to do that is to never get in an airplane. Here we only
have one runway out of four that really gives you an out and even then
you are looking at merging with express way traffic, IF you can make
it over, or under the over pass.

what I meant was that you shouldn't have been in the situation that you
didn't already have things planned out. the flight in question the pilot
tried to turn when he shouldn't have. he was close(?) to the altitude limit
that told him that he should fly straight but tried to turn.

my point is that if you practice the turn at altitude, it does not give the
same experience as doing it at the same altitude as the engine failure.

to properly do this, you'd have to practice the turn at the actual height of
the engine failure. that would be risky, but trying to duplicate it at high
altitudes eliminates variables that change.

I really cant explain this too well. If I was the pilot, I would have a set
altitude that I would never attempt the turn at in the situation, and stick
to that. it would definitely be higher than needed.

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Roger" wrote

The only way to do that is to never get in an airplane.

that might be the best thing to do sometimes. but it seems that a lot of
crashes are caused either by the pilot choosing a course of action that he
shouldn't have, or a mechanical failure

and that is what i mean by "not getting into that situation", as pilot in
command, you *should* be able to (instantly) react to any situation, in a
manner that gets the plane down safely. the incident in question was wether
the pilot should have gone stright or turned.

one of the things that stops me from going out and geting my liscence is
that there are some situations that i dont see how to get a safe solution
from. the more i ask though, the more of things i can plan to avoid.

Here we only
have one runway out of four that really gives you an out and even then
you are looking at merging with express way traffic, IF you can make
it over, or under the over pass.

sounds like a nightmare. how does one confidently plan for failure
contingencies?

Engines quit, even new ones. Some times they give warning and a lot
of times they don't. Mine quit on take off with no warning, not even
a hiccup. It went from full power to silence all of a sudden.

I don't understand if you completely know your engine inside and out,
have given pet names to all of the little nuts and bolts, why is the engine
quiting?

You will have to excuse "tater shouldn't" - he's our new troll. of the
month.

I apologize. I honest am not trying to be a troll.

I am trying to find a way to fly an airplane, how to avoid dangerous
situations, and how to do it on a common mans income. threads like these
help explain why certain accidents happen, and how to avoid them.

On Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:11:35 -0600, "Tater Schuld"
wrote:


"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Roger" wrote

The only way to do that is to never get in an airplane.

that might be the best thing to do sometimes. but it seems that a lot of
crashes are caused either by the pilot choosing a course of action that he
shouldn't have, or a mechanical failure

Outside of "divine intervention" those are about the only two
possibilities I can think of. Most accidents come from a string of
actions or inactions, not just a single mistake although sometimes,
"getting up in the morning" might count.


and that is what i mean by "not getting into that situation", as pilot in
command, you *should* be able to (instantly) react to any situation, in a
manner that gets the plane down safely. the incident in question was wether
the pilot should have gone stright or turned.


Nature has a way of playing tricks on us. Weather not associated
with frontal activity going down over wide areas in five minutes or so
(been there, done that), or frontal activity triggering activity over
a wide area, or fronts stopping and backing up as fast as they were
going the other way.

one of the things that stops me from going out and geting my liscence is
that there are some situations that i dont see how to get a safe solution
from. the more i ask though, the more of things i can plan to avoid.

The same is true of driving a car, or more so. I had an SUV come
shooting out of a parking lot onto the highway with all 4 burning. I
managed to leave about 12 feet of skid marks before shortening up my
Trans Am by a couple of feet.

I lost a friend when a truck lost a wheel. They figured he never saw
it coming. Those wheels are big and heavy.

A cousin was driving down a small street and of all things, collided
with a horse. Something caused the horse to shy and bolt out onto the
street, over his hood and ended up going through the wind shield. It
put the rider as well as both my cousin and his wife in the hospital.
They had to put the horse down.

Here we only
have one runway out of four that really gives you an out and even then
you are looking at merging with express way traffic, IF you can make
it over, or under the over pass.

sounds like a nightmare. how does one confidently plan for failure
contingencies?

Aim for the softest objects with the smallest number of people. (that
was not a joke). Do not pick streets and roads unless all the other
alternatives are big, hard, and contain lots of people. They are the
first thing most pilots think of when it gets real quiet. Unless it's
a deserted expressway, I'll take an empty field any day and even some
of those have power and telephone lines across them.

I have confidence in the Deb as it has only failed once in over a 1000
hours of flying. I've had radios fail, both nav and com. I've had
three AI failures and one tach failure as well as one tach cable
failure. The first AI failure was the day after bringing the Deb
home in a storm.


Engines quit, even new ones. Some times they give warning and a lot
of times they don't. Mine quit on take off with no warning, not even
a hiccup. It went from full power to silence all of a sudden.

I don't understand if you completely know your engine inside and out,
have given pet names to all of the little nuts and bolts, why is the engine
quiting?

It got tired of being taken apart, or developed hostility due to those
"pet names" involving canine ancestry, unnatural acts and incestuous
relationships, I've given it.


You will have to excuse "tater shouldn't" - he's our new troll. of the
month.

Ah, I'll treat this thread as legit...for the time being:-))


I apologize. I honest am not trying to be a troll.

I am trying to find a way to fly an airplane, how to avoid dangerous
situations,

You can minimize the number of dangerous situations to which you are
exposed, but you will never eliminate them.

and how to do it on a common mans income. threads like these
help explain why certain accidents happen, and how to avoid them.

Airplanes like any other machines will break from time to time.
They are quite reliable even with the old technology. Given proper
care and treatment they may go a long time between failures.

With training and thought we can avoid *most* accidents, but not all.
As for the ones that come looking for us, all we can do is be as
prepared as well as possible.

The thing is: There is absolutely nothing we do that comes without
risk. If we stayed home and tried to stay safe we'd all probably die
early deaths from heart attacks from being out of shape. Cars have
driven off the road and into some one's home, killing them where they
sat of slept. Airliners have crashed into homes (again a very rare
event). People fall down and break something vital. We take vitamins
for years only to find the dye in the pills causes cancer. Mice get
into wiring causing homes to burn down, furnaces develop carbon
monoxide leaks, and lightning strikes kill quite a few people every
year.

Life is about risk management whether we do it consciously or
subconsciously. Every movement, every action is accompanied by some
amount of risk in one form or another.

People are now living longer than ever, but they are doing so by
staying active longer and that exposes them to risks they'd have never
seen had they lived the average life span a century ago.

You decide what you want to do as in this case, flying. You learn as
much as you can, you learn your limitations, and your airplane's
limitations. You learn and practice what to do when things go wrong.
You practice to the point where you do not have to think about what to
do with emergency procedures. With enough practice you body will
react to things faster than you can consciously recognize what is
happening as with engine failures.

In addition to flying one of my hobbies is Amateur Radio.
http://www.rogerhalstead.com/ham_files/Tower29.htm In that photo I'm
working a bit over 100 feet above my wife who shot the picture. I
have spent as many as 8 hours up there at one time (not recently)

If we only go around once I want to enjoy it. I do nothing that
exceeds my risk tolerance limits and I do have limits.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 14:21:32 -0500, T o d d P a t t i s t
wrote:



For anyone that's interested, here's a PIREP I posted on
practicing the turnback maneuver.
_____________

I believe AOPA has a tape called "The impossible Turn" that addresses
issues such as learning just how much altitude you need in your
particular plane to be able to safely complete the maneuver.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Several years ago in the Wide World of Flying video series (Volume 5, Number
18), captain Barry Schiff did a segment about this very topic. He
recommended practicing a 360 turn at altitude, with 45 degree bank at best
glide speed. In a climb, reduce power to idle, wait a few seconds to
simulate the time it takes for reality to soak in, then get the nose down to
establish glide speed. After rolling out level from the 360, pull up in a
landing flare to arrest the descent and see how much altitude was lost. In
a 172, if you really nail it you can lose 500 feet. 700 feet or more can
result if you don't do it just right.

Kevin Davidson


"Bryan Martin" wrote in message
...
In a "normal landing" you start a half mile to a mile to one side of the
runway and only require about 180 degrees of turn. In a turn back maneuver
after takeoff, you are nearly directly off the end of the runway. Turning
back to the runway from this position requires far more than 180 degrees
of
turn. So calling it a 180 degree turn back can be misleading. 180 degrees
of
turn will usually put you well to one side of the runway so you must
continue turning until you are headed back towards the runway and then
turn
back the opposite direction to line up with it. This maneuver requires
closer to 360 degrees of turn than 180 and you will lose altitude faster
while turning than when flying wings level. So before you attempt a turn
back, you need to know how much altitude you will need for a 360 degree
turn.

If you are taking off from an airport with more than one runway, you might
consider if it would be easier to turn back to a different runway than the
one you took off from. One time during a BFR, my instructor pulled the
throttle at about 500' after takeoff from runway 6 at Midland Barstow. He
expected me to attempt to return to land on runway 24. He was kind of
surprised when I just made a gentle 240 degree left turn and rolled out
lined up with runway 18 with altitude to spare. I just looked back and
realized it would be much easier to get to 18 than 24, the wind was
blowing
us that way anyway.
--
Bryan Martin


in article , Highflyer at wrote on
2/4/06 11:14 PM:


It seems to me that when I learned to fly the normal landing was a
"power
off" landing. You always cut the power on the downwind leg heading away
from the airport and from the end of the runway. Then, after a little
while, you proceeded to make a 180 degree turn back to the airport and
landed. This was done with the engine cut to idle. Sometimes, they cut
even beyond idle and quit completely! :-) It was called a normal
landing
and you were supposed to do all of them that way.

Clearly there is some altitude and distance from the end of the runway
where
a "turnback" type maneuver is no problem at all, and actually closely
approximates the normal landing of my youth. Equally clearly there is
also
some altitude and distance from the end of the runway where such a
"turnback" maneuver is clearly impossible. Obviously the trick is
knowing
exactly where in the range between A and B that you are at the moment
the
engine quits and behaving accordingly. Most flight instructors cop out
totally and just say "Go straight ahead."

Personally, I have had engine failures on "takeoff" where straight ahead
was
best. I have had engine failures on "takeoff" where "turnback" was
best.
And I even had ONE engine failure on "takeoff" where neither "turnback"
nor
"straight ahead" would work and I had to do something creative! :-)

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )