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#1
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Flight Simulator now being used by flight instructors
"Ed Forsythe" wrote in message ... Nancy, Try explaining how *easy* it is to an eminently qualified student who has washed out of the USAF or USN flight training programs. -- Happy Flying, Ed Hi Ed, You can add US Army to that as well. Like you, I was also introduced to "sims" (I use the term loosely G) via the Link Trainer--Blue Canoe?? G-- back in the 50s. Army got some old ones from the USAF--(thanks, I think) G I hated those things, but they sure did help with procedural items. No way could you say they taught you to fly--ANYTHING. Paul |
#2
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snip Through simming, you could gain some useful IFR procedural training prior to flight, but don't kid yourself that it would be worth the crippling effect it will have with respect to primary flight training. Simming can be a lot of fun and it is an engrossing hobby. It can provide simulated flight experience to those who cannot participate in the real thing, but for non-flyers it can hinder or even destroy any chances they might have at success in subsequent flying training. If you want to learn to fly in the real world, put the toy away. snip Well, I have been simming with MS-FS since the 'green sticks' version - and two years ago I stepped into the cockpit of a Cessna to begin some flying lessons for real. With all those simming hours clocked up I impressed the instructor with my instant ability able to read the gauges and understand the information they presented. We had a pretty good discussion in ground school and he even asked if I had taken lessons before as I seemed to have the physics and basic principles taken care of. I just don't agree with your 'crippling effect' comment as I had no problems flying the Cessna for real and using peripheral vision for situation awareness (something that's obviously missing when you're staring at a computer monitor) So although simming may or may not teach the physical aspects and feeling of flying it sure does give you a headstart on a lot of the topics. At the end of the day it's a simulation, my chair don't move and my stick don't give me feedback but I am obviously learning from it (and enjoying it) |
#3
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"Chris Norris" wrote in message ... snip Through simming, you could gain some useful IFR procedural training prior to flight, but don't kid yourself that it would be worth the crippling effect it will have with respect to primary flight training. Simming can be a lot of fun and it is an engrossing hobby. It can provide simulated flight experience to those who cannot participate in the real thing, but for non-flyers it can hinder or even destroy any chances they might have at success in subsequent flying training. If you want to learn to fly in the real world, put the toy away. snip Well, I have been simming with MS-FS since the 'green sticks' version - and two years ago I stepped into the cockpit of a Cessna to begin some flying lessons for real. With all those simming hours clocked up I impressed the instructor with my instant ability able to read the gauges and understand the information they presented. We had a pretty good discussion in ground school and he even asked if I had taken lessons before as I seemed to have the physics and basic principles taken care of. At most private flying schools, most instructors will be sales oriented and are apt to tickle your ear. They are not likely to chase you away by telling you that your experience with flight simulation was a mistake that may cause serious problems. The drill is to sign you up, get your money and deal with your problems, in that order. That's the business they're in. I just don't agree with your 'crippling effect' comment as I had no problems flying the Cessna for real and using peripheral vision for situation awareness (something that's obviously missing when you're staring at a computer monitor) Peripheral vision? If you had persistently relied upon peripheral vision for situation awareness at a military flying school you would have been a candidate for elimination. You would have been taught to "keep your head out of the cockpit and on a swivel." In other words, during contact flight, your instructor would want to see your head up and in constant motion, traversing a very wide angle . You would be taught to cross check instruments quickly and return to the routine of turning your head so that you could see directly your situation. Good peripheral vision would be a requirement for your acceptance in the program, but you would not make the grade relying on it as you suggest. So although simming may or may not teach the physical aspects and feeling of flying it sure does give you a headstart on a lot of the topics. Reading a few good books will do that, without conditioning you to constantly face front. At the end of the day it's a simulation, my chair don't move and my stick don't give me feedback but I am obviously learning from it (and enjoying it) Happy landings. |
#4
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"kallijaa" wrote in message ... "Chris Norris" wrote in message ... snip Through simming, you could gain some useful IFR procedural training prior to flight, but don't kid yourself that it would be worth the crippling effect it will have with respect to primary flight training. Simming can be a lot of fun and it is an engrossing hobby. It can provide simulated flight experience to those who cannot participate in the real thing, but for non-flyers it can hinder or even destroy any chances they might have at success in subsequent flying training. If you want to learn to fly in the real world, put the toy away. snip Well, I have been simming with MS-FS since the 'green sticks' version - and two years ago I stepped into the cockpit of a Cessna to begin some flying lessons for real. With all those simming hours clocked up I impressed the instructor with my instant ability able to read the gauges and understand the information they presented. We had a pretty good discussion in ground school and he even asked if I had taken lessons before as I seemed to have the physics and basic principles taken care of. At most private flying schools, most instructors will be sales oriented and are apt to tickle your ear. They are not likely to chase you away by telling you that your experience with flight simulation was a mistake that may cause serious problems. The drill is to sign you up, get your money and deal with your problems, in that order. That's the business they're in. I just don't agree with your 'crippling effect' comment as I had no problems flying the Cessna for real and using peripheral vision for situation awareness (something that's obviously missing when you're staring at a computer monitor) Peripheral vision? If you had persistently relied upon peripheral vision for situation awareness at a military flying school you would have been a candidate for elimination. You would have been taught to "keep your head out of the cockpit and on a swivel." In other words, during contact flight, your instructor would want to see your head up and in constant motion, traversing a very wide angle . You would be taught to cross check instruments quickly and return to the routine of turning your head so that you could see directly your situation. Good peripheral vision would be a requirement for your acceptance in the program, but you would not make the grade relying on it as you suggest. Just like I do in the sim! G Dashii |
#5
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"Dashii" wrote in message ... "kallijaa" wrote in message ... "Chris Norris" wrote in message ... snip Through simming, you could gain some useful IFR procedural training prior to flight, but don't kid yourself that it would be worth the crippling effect it will have with respect to primary flight training. Simming can be a lot of fun and it is an engrossing hobby. It can provide simulated flight experience to those who cannot participate in the real thing, but for non-flyers it can hinder or even destroy any chances they might have at success in subsequent flying training. If you want to learn to fly in the real world, put the toy away. snip Well, I have been simming with MS-FS since the 'green sticks' version - and two years ago I stepped into the cockpit of a Cessna to begin some flying lessons for real. With all those simming hours clocked up I impressed the instructor with my instant ability able to read the gauges and understand the information they presented. We had a pretty good discussion in ground school and he even asked if I had taken lessons before as I seemed to have the physics and basic principles taken care of. At most private flying schools, most instructors will be sales oriented and are apt to tickle your ear. They are not likely to chase you away by telling you that your experience with flight simulation was a mistake that may cause serious problems. The drill is to sign you up, get your money and deal with your problems, in that order. That's the business they're in. I just don't agree with your 'crippling effect' comment as I had no problems flying the Cessna for real and using peripheral vision for situation awareness (something that's obviously missing when you're staring at a computer monitor) Peripheral vision? If you had persistently relied upon peripheral vision for situation awareness at a military flying school you would have been a candidate for elimination. You would have been taught to "keep your head out of the cockpit and on a swivel." In other words, during contact flight, your instructor would want to see your head up and in constant motion, traversing a very wide angle . You would be taught to cross check instruments quickly and return to the routine of turning your head so that you could see directly your situation. Good peripheral vision would be a requirement for your acceptance in the program, but you would not make the grade relying on it as you suggest. Just like I do in the sim! G Dashii Oh, really? I recall you describing how you use "outside views." How do you access those outside views and where are your eyes focused during that process? Let me guess: You switch to outside view using your keyboard or a switch on your flight controls. Am I getting warm? Then you look at those outside views on the same display used to view the instrument panel and the slim strip of the sim world atop. Warmer? By that process you are training your head to habitually remain stationary and your eyes to look forward at all times. Those are the kind of habits that hinder progress in flight training. Kalijaa |
#6
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"kallijaa" wrote in
: Oh, really? I recall you describing how you use "outside views." How do you access those outside views and where are your eyes focused during that process? Let me guess: You switch to outside view using your keyboard or a switch on your flight controls. Am I getting warm? Then you look at those outside views on the same display used to view the instrument panel and the slim strip of the sim world atop. Warmer? By that process you are training your head to habitually remain stationary and your eyes to look forward at all times. Those are the kind of habits that hinder progress in flight training. Kalijaa Oh, give me a ****ing break! Are you honestly trying to argue that instructors have to train somebody to turn their heads because they lost this ability through simming? Those of us who transition between auto transmission cars, standard trucks, and motorcycles on a routine basis would call you a moron. So would the helo pilots who later obtained a fixed-wing rating. These are far more involved, and much more ingrained as habits, than anything you might develop in a sim. Moreover, flight instructors are used to dealing with people that have no concept of aerodynamics, instrumentation, or thinking in three dimensions, and flight schooling is geared around that, very specifically. Arguing that 'changing views' is looked upon as a habit that needs to be broken is unbelieveably ignorant. - Al. -- To reply, insert dash in address to separate G and I in the domain |
#7
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Peripheral vision? If you had persistently relied upon peripheral vision for situation awareness at a military flying school you would have been a candidate for elimination. You would have been taught to "keep your head out of the cockpit and on a swivel." In other words, during contact flight, your instructor would want to see your head up and in constant motion, traversing a very wide angle . You would be taught to cross check instruments quickly and return to the routine of turning your head so that you could see directly your situation. Good peripheral vision would be a requirement for your acceptance in the program, but you would not make the grade relying on it as you suggest. Thank you for your candid opinions on my flying ability. Yeah, I remember you sitting in the back watching my every move during the lessons. For your information I value my life and so the instructor did not have to tell me to look around regularly and before manoevring. Do you really imagine I sat there and only looked at the panel and through the front windshield, with my head fixed and eyes forward like a freakin crash test dummy or something? I think a lot of people can tell the difference between sitting at a computer desk and sitting in a cockpit. I know I can and I'm starting to wonder if you cannot and therefore are taking it out on the fine people in this group? Anyway, this whole discussion wasn't about just turning one's head. It was about using FS as a training aid. For instance you can read a mutlitude of books on navigation but putting theory into practice and using the instruments and charts for real is a different ball game and requires hours of practice. All I'm saying is that as a training aid FS is a valuble addition to ground school and you can practice whenever you like. Chris Norris |
#8
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"Chris Norris" wrote in message ... Peripheral vision? If you had persistently relied upon peripheral vision for situation awareness at a military flying school you would have been a candidate for elimination. You would have been taught to "keep your head out of the cockpit and on a swivel." In other words, during contact flight, your instructor would want to see your head up and in constant motion, traversing a very wide angle . You would be taught to cross check instruments quickly and return to the routine of turning your head so that you could see directly your situation. Good peripheral vision would be a requirement for your acceptance in the program, but you would not make the grade relying on it as you suggest. Thank you for your candid opinions on my flying ability. Yeah, I remember you sitting in the back watching my every move during the lessons. For your information I value my life and so the instructor did not have to tell me to look around regularly and before manoevring. Good for you. Do you really imagine I sat there and only looked at the panel and through the front windshield, with my head fixed and eyes forward like a freakin crash test dummy or something? I know that this will be hard for you to take and I really don't want to upset you, but the fact is, you have not been uppermost in my mind. Moreover, I hadn't so much as imagined your existance till now and am having difficulty with the concept at present. In general, however, the behavior you mention is typical of new student pilots. I think a lot of people can tell the difference between sitting at a computer desk and sitting in a cockpit. I know I can and I'm starting to wonder if you cannot and therefore are taking it out on the fine people in this group? Good for you. Thinking and wondering should help you to sort it all out. Anyway, this whole discussion wasn't about just turning one's head. It was about using FS as a training aid. For instance you can read a mutlitude of books on navigation but putting theory into practice and using the instruments and charts for real is a different ball game and requires hours of practice. All I'm saying is that as a training aid FS is a valuble addition to ground school and you can practice whenever you like. Chris Norris Apparently, you have not bothered to read the entire thread. Do that and a little more thinking and wondering. Kalijaa |
#9
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O
For your information I value my life and so the instructor did not have to tell me to look around regularly and before manoevring. Good for you. Yes it was good for me in that I scanned the instruments and scanned outside in a regular manner without hitting anything. In fact you could say 'Very good for you'. Like five portions of vegetables a day or eating a fibre-rich cereal. I know that this will be hard for you to take Not really, I have a life and friends and a good woman. My world encompasses more than this newsgroup and, well, you! , but the fact is, you have not been uppermost in my mind. Big deal. Like that means something to me. Good for you. Thinking and wondering should help you to sort it all out. Is there an echo in here? Yes, maybe more people should think before posting to newsgroups... Apparently, you have not bothered to read the entire thread. Do that and a little more thinking and wondering. A great man has written! Not only do you know of my flying lessons you also know of my computer usage like you have sat next to me and taken notes. Yet we are strangers and may come from different lands. What will the prophet say next? // No I didn't bother to read the entire thread, I just pick posts at random and write nonsense. // Naturally I read all preceding posts before commenting to avoid saying something which would brand me a 'donkey' or to draw what is commonly known as 'flame posts' written by 'trolls' who like to cause unnecessary arguments. Good day to you Sir, I shall retire to the drawing room where I will partake in a session of Microsoft Flight Simulator version 2004: A Century of Flight and continue to practice navigation in conjunction with my Jeppesen charts of the European countries. Chris |
#10
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S Herman wrote in message ... In article , "kallijaa" wrote: Simming can be a lot of fun and it is an engrossing hobby. It can provide simulated flight experience to those who cannot participate in the real thing, but for non-flyers it can hinder or even destroy any chances they might have at success in subsequent flying training. If you want to learn to fly in the real world, put the toy away. Kalijaa I don't know that it will permanently damage anyone, BUT - I am a new student (~12 hours). My instructor told me to stop using the flight sim when I mentioned i had been a fan of them for years. i dont have the time now any way! Since the panel ususally fills most of the screen on the sim, your main clues are the instruments. So, i will agree that it appears that my penchant for observing the instruments is not helping me learn the visual and physical clues for performing the basic manuevers. Most of the manuevers for the PTS seem to be much harder to execute by instrument! And of course, i have to add that my real flying has inmproved my flight simming greatly! :-) just kidding! Same here. My experience with flight simulators around 1983 was a major factor in deciding to get my PPL. I was rarely able to land the sim successfully until after I learned to land the real plane! Cheers, John Clonts Temple, Texas N7NZ |
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