Wanting to start a new glider club

On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 1:56:24 PM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
Hi everyone

I just started glider flying lessons and I'M HOOKED!!! Unfortunately, the closest glider club is 3:45 hr drive away. I also live in an area that looks to me to be perfect for ridge soaring, with a range of mountains facing the west that runs for at least 85 miles, and possibly longer. We have an airport close by with a 4800' runway, about 2-3 miles west of the mountains. A friend is a CFI and A&P, and is interested in getting his "glider ticket" as well. There are a few other folks in the area that have expressed varying interest in flying gliders as well. But as it currently stands, no one (except one possible individual that I haven't yet talked to) in the area actually flies gliders. My friend and I have talked about the possibility of starting a local club. What would be the best way to go about doing this?

On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 1:56:24 PM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
Hi everyone

I just started glider flying lessons and I'M HOOKED!!! Unfortunately, the closest glider club is 3:45 hr drive away. I also live in an area that looks to me to be perfect for ridge soaring, with a range of mountains facing the west that runs for at least 85 miles, and possibly longer. We have an airport close by with a 4800' runway, about 2-3 miles west of the mountains. A friend is a CFI and A&P, and is interested in getting his "glider ticket" as well. There are a few other folks in the area that have expressed varying interest in flying gliders as well. But as it currently stands, no one (except one possible individual that I haven't yet talked to) in the area actually flies gliders. My friend and I have talked about the possibility of starting a local club. What would be the best way to go about doing this?

I'd fly my Lake 12 over from Spokane if you get a tow plane going there.

On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 3:17:43 PM UTC-6, john firth wrote:
On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 4:56:24 PM UTC-4, John Foster wrote:
Hi everyone

I just started glider flying lessons and I'M HOOKED!!! Unfortunately, the closest glider club is 3:45 hr drive away. I also live in an area that looks to me to be perfect for ridge soaring, with a range of mountains facing the west that runs for at least 85 miles, and possibly longer. We have an airport close by with a 4800' runway, about 2-3 miles west of the mountains. A friend is a CFI and A&P, and is interested in getting his "glider ticket" as well. There are a few other folks in the area that have expressed varying interest in flying gliders as well. But as it currently stands, no one (except one possible individual that I haven't yet talked to) in the area actually flies gliders. My friend and I have talked about the possibility of starting a local club. What would be the best way to go about doing this?

Car tow might be the most economical way to launch, if the a/p mgt.. will let you; looks like 5000ft of hard top, which is more than adequate.
Moreover, driver training is easier than starting a newbie on a winch.
JMF

I spoke to the airport manager today, and he indicated he would need to discuss it with the board, but didn't see why we wouldn't be able to do auto tow here. Our runway is about 4800', oriented parallel to the mountains, but about 2.5 to 3 miles to the west of the mountains. It would be nice to be able to get as high as possible in order to get over to the mountains, particularly with a low-performance bird like a 2-33 or a 2-22. The idea of the reverse auto tow using a pulley really sounds appealing, and to me this more closely approximates the action of a winch (other than the acceleration). Anyone know where one could get a lead on the rope used to string high-voltage cables? That sounds ideal for a tow rope.

One of my objectives in this endeavor is to keep it as affordable as possible. There is a lot of poverty around here, and if there was a way to keep launching cost down to a minimum, that would be ideal.

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 12:22:25 AM UTC-4, John Foster wrote:

It would be nice to be able to get as high as possible in order to get over to the mountains

You only need to get high enough to have a couple minutes to find and catch a thermal. Once you gain a bit of altitude in that first thermal, you can fly upwind to find better thermals (and get away from the pattern). Eventually you get high enough to fly downwind over to the mountains with enough reserve altitude to fly upwind back to the airport.


The good news is that pilots at winch and auto tow operations get a lot of launching and landing practice, and when you do finally catch a thermal, it is a hoot.

The other good thing about winching (and autotow?) is that launch and land practice/training is great fun even on days with no lift. Winching is much more fun than aerotow, and for the price of a single aerotow, you can do 5-6 winch launches.

John,

I hope you can get this operation off the ground. I did some power plane flying in that area some years back and it looks spectacular for glider flying. Montana's nickname is "big sky country" after all.....

Best of luck,

Ron Clark
LS3
Evergreen Soaring Club

Some useful links. I was a member of a club that did straight reverse
pulley autotow off grass, just a pulley on a rotating shackle on a chain
staked into the grass, and we used to launch a 22M Kestrel with that
system. You have to be carefull with initial rotation as acceleration is
not as fast as a winch - using a 2:1 and 3:1 pulley system might help
with that.



http://www.ukmsg.co.uk/wp-content/up.../SG-Dec-2013.-
Expedition-pilots-guide-to-aunching.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0rv1zOmyWg

http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~cline/...und-launch.pdf

http://www.coloradosoaring.org/think...launching/reve
rse_pulley/default.htm

I did most of my ab initio training and learning to be an instructor on
autotow.

I'd suggest avoiding reverse pulley because it's difficult for both the tow
car driver and pilot to know when to finish the launch. With straight
autotow it's easy, stop sufficiently before the end of the runway that you
can drive forward and lay the cable out.

Another issue is cross winds. The cable will drift downwind and looking at
Ronan on Google Earth there are fields with irrigation equipment there. The
farmers will take a dim view of the launch cable being dragged through
their irrigation kit.

Chris

At 15:14 28 April 2018, Paul T wrote:
Some useful links. I was a member of a club that did straight reverse
pulley autotow off grass, just a pulley on a rotating shackle on a chain
staked into the grass, and we used to launch a 22M Kestrel with that
system. You have to be carefull with initial rotation as acceleration is
not as fast as a winch - using a 2:1 and 3:1 pulley system might help
with that.



http://www.ukmsg.co.uk/wp-content/up.../SG-Dec-2013.-
Expedition-pilots-guide-to-aunching.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0rv1zOmyWg

http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~cline/...und-launch.pdf

http://www.coloradosoaring.org/think...launching/reve
rse_pulley/default.htm

On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 9:22:25 PM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 3:17:43 PM UTC-6, john firth wrote:
On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 4:56:24 PM UTC-4, John Foster wrote:
Hi everyone

I just started glider flying lessons and I'M HOOKED!!! Unfortunately, the closest glider club is 3:45 hr drive away. I also live in an area that looks to me to be perfect for ridge soaring, with a range of mountains facing the west that runs for at least 85 miles, and possibly longer. We have an airport close by with a 4800' runway, about 2-3 miles west of the mountains. A friend is a CFI and A&P, and is interested in getting his "glider ticket" as well. There are a few other folks in the area that have expressed varying interest in flying gliders as well. But as it currently stands, no one (except one possible individual that I haven't yet talked to) in the area actually flies gliders. My friend and I have talked about the possibility of starting a local club. What would be the best way to go about doing this?

Car tow might be the most economical way to launch, if the a/p mgt.. will let you; looks like 5000ft of hard top, which is more than adequate.
Moreover, driver training is easier than starting a newbie on a winch.
JMF

I spoke to the airport manager today, and he indicated he would need to discuss it with the board, but didn't see why we wouldn't be able to do auto tow here. Our runway is about 4800', oriented parallel to the mountains, but about 2.5 to 3 miles to the west of the mountains. It would be nice to be able to get as high as possible in order to get over to the mountains, particularly with a low-performance bird like a 2-33 or a 2-22. The idea of the reverse auto tow using a pulley really sounds appealing, and to me this more closely approximates the action of a winch (other than the acceleration). Anyone know where one could get a lead on the rope used to string high-voltage cables? That sounds ideal for a tow rope.

One of my objectives in this endeavor is to keep it as affordable as possible. There is a lot of poverty around here, and if there was a way to keep launching cost down to a minimum, that would be ideal.

I would be surprised if the board would agree to an auto towing operation for one simple reason: liability. Long cables and general aviation just don't mix. You already indicated that you had a friend with with a C180. If he got his CFIG and you got a G103, you could do commercial rides, which are the real revenue generator. You really need to talk to a few other clubs to get a handle on the finances, which will either make you or break you. You also might consider going to a commercial site where you can get your training by total immersion. You could then give rides to prospective club members.
You asked, again, about how to attract club members after I gave you a good suggestion. I will give you one mo advertise, it's tried and true.
Somebody is going to have to provide startup money for the club in the way of a loan. That would be you in combination with whomever else you can find.. You can get aircraft loans, but you will need money for all these other expenses.

Tom

On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 9:47:28 AM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 8:00:43 AM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
These are all great suggestions. Thanks for all the responses so far. Keep them coming!

You might try approaching another nearby club to have a weekend camp at your airport. Have a charity fund raising event where rides are given and donations from the rides go to the charity. This will likely be covered by your local media. Everybody that gets a ride, or their parents are potential new club members.

You need to do a financial analysis to determine what initiation fees and dues should be. A place to start are other clubs. Most will share that data.

Tom

Thanks Tom

These are good ideas. I've already talked to the nearest club (almost 4hr drive away). I've also thought about getting local news/media involved to get the word out. I've also started a Facebook interest group page, but as of yet, not much activity or interest there other than those I've added myself. I don't anticipate we will be flying before summer of 2019 anyway, but getting some of the groundwork done ahead of time, and trying to stimulate local interest is what I'm working on now. Also thinking of putting up flyers in the local airports pilot's lounges.

Again, keeping costs down and making it accessible to most folks is one of my main goals. Aviation in general is so expensive these days, that it is driving a lot of the younger generation away.

At 20:43 28 April 2018, Chris Rowland wrote:
I did most of my ab initio training and learning to be an instructor
o
autotow.

I'd suggest avoiding reverse pulley because it's difficult for both
the to
car driver and pilot to know when to finish the launch. With
straigh
autotow it's easy, stop sufficiently before the end of the runway
that yo
can drive forward and lay the cable out.

Another issue is cross winds. The cable will drift downwind and
looking a
Ronan on Google Earth there are fields with irrigation equipment
there. Th
farmers will take a dim view of the launch cable being dragged
throug
their irrigation kit.

Chris



Don't see what the problem is at all with reverse pulley - had many
launches that way - the other end of the runway is just as easily
visible to the tow car driver and as speed decays the glider pilot
pulls off - think you creating an issue where none exists.

If you have a straight reverse pulley system and set it up properly,
with removable strops t both ends the cable is waiting for the next
glider, the car drives back and connects to the other end of the cable
and your ready to launch again.

Some reverse pulley systems where just way over the top -KISS is
the answer. Doubt these guys will be doing hundreds of launches a
day.

Crosswinds are something every ground launching site has to
contend with and 1000's of sites around the world seem to manage
ok with proper training - seem to remember the advice was to have
at least 80m width of clear land to launch from.