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#111
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GLIDING INTERNATIONAL -- RESEARCH
In the UK "Freedom of expression" is guaranteed under the European
Convention on Human rights. The only real restriction is that it's illegal to incite hate crimes. You've got more Airspace, cos you've got more area away from airports Interesting that the *first* on your list was guns. I'll bow out now before this gets messy PF At 11:59 12 November 2019, wrote: On Tuesday, November 12, 2019 at 4:15:05 AM UTC-5, Peter F wrote: OK, I know I shouldn't but I'll bite anyway.. What freedom do you think you have in the US that we in Western Europe don't? Guns, speech, moreso than Europe, though they are coming hard for both here. More airspace freedom. Probably more land use freedom in general, big country lots of variable rules. We're still freer than Western Europe but we are catching up quick. |
#112
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GLIDING INTERNATIONAL -- RESEARCH
Le lundi 11 novembre 2019 18:39:21 UTC+1, Mike N. a écrit*:
In the U.S.A. flying gliders or powered aircraft is open to a broader population than other countries where recreational flying is typically only obtainable by the wealthy. Maybe you should visit Europe once to see what it means to have soaring open to a broader population AND to provide decent club gliders. |
#113
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GLIDING INTERNATIONAL -- RESEARCH
Been there, done that. And it depends on what your definition of “ decent” club gliders is. In a club setting my definition is ships which are inexpensive to fly and operate.
Due to the ridiculously high cost of personal aircraft ownership in EU, the club scene is essential for folks of modest means to get to fly. Thankfully here in the states, we are not forced into that situation. Any tom-dick-harry can, for modest means, own and operate his own ship! Can’t say that about EU. Have fun with your “decent” club ships over there, I’d rather own and fly my own ship, even if its of lower performance here, wherever and whenever I choose. |
#114
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GLIDING INTERNATIONAL -- RESEARCH
I am a member of a small UK club, I use to own an IS29 D2 outright but stopped flying in early 2000, came back to soaring in 2015 and have a half share in a nice Standard Cirrus. Most club members own or have a share in gliders of similar or better performance ranging from Jet powered Shark, ASH 25, DG 400 M DG 600 M Slingsby Skylark 4 Dart 17 a number of Ventus 1 and 2. Nimbus and mini Nimbus. Club fleet is Puchacz , Grob Twin Acro 2 and Grob 102 Astir , we own a Robin DR400 for Areotows. Launch fees are Aerotow to 2000' £24.00 Aerotow - each additional 200' above 2000' £1.50 Aerotow to 1000' - only available for dual training £14.00 Aerotow to 1500' - only available for dual training £20.00 Winch launch Fee - all launches before 11:00 hrs £4 Winch launch Fee - after 11:00 hrs - non-soaring flights £6 Winch launch Fee - after 11:00 hrs - soaring flights £8 Self launch fee- including members' powered aircraft £3 Rental for club aircraft Annual members - 2 seaters, per minute for first hour £0.35 (£21 for first hour) Annual members - 2 seaters, per minute after first hour £0.25 (£15 per subsequent hour) Annual members - 2 seaters, after 3 hours. Free (approved flights) Annual members - Astir single seater, 30p per minute first hour, 20p per minute second hour. Free after second hour (consistent with the needs of other members) I think those costs mean it is financially accessible to the majority. I was a Registered nurse with a family and in the UK we are not paid as well as in the USA however it has always been affordable for me. I would be interested to hear how that compares with USA Been there, done that. And it depends on what your definition of decent club gliders is. In a club setting my definition is ships which are inexpensive to fly and operate. Due to the ridiculously high cost of personal aircraft ownership in EU, the club scene is essential for folks of modest means to get to fly. Thankfully here in the states, we are not forced into that situation. Any tom-dick-harry can, for modest means, own and operate his own ship! Cant say that about EU. Have fun with your decent club ships overthere, Id rather own and fly my own ship, even if its of lower performance here, wherever and whenever I choose. |
#115
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GLIDING INTERNATIONAL -- RESEARCH
Le mardi 12 novembre 2019 17:51:07 UTC+1, a écrit*:
Been there, done that. And it depends on what your definition of “ decent” club gliders is. In a club setting my definition is ships which are inexpensive to fly and operate. Due to the ridiculously high cost of personal aircraft ownership in EU, the club scene is essential for folks of modest means to get to fly. Thankfully here in the states, we are not forced into that situation. Any tom-dick-harry can, for modest means, own and operate his own ship! Can’t say that about EU. Have fun with your “decent” club ships over there, I’d rather own and fly my own ship, even if its of lower performance here, wherever and whenever I choose. In Europe, you can get a single seater Astir or a Standard Cirrus for less than 10k€, and ownership will cost you a couple of hundred bucks per year. If you don't have that budget, some wooden ships like Ka6 etc go for 2.5k to 5k (and there are plenty available). If that's incredibly expensive for you... I fly a Ventus cM, and I prefer to have my personal glider for various reasons, but cost and performance are not part of them. In my club, for far less money than my Ventus costs me, I can chose between 2 LS4, 2 DuoDiscus and 2 LS18-18 and fly almost as much as I want... Ok, I live in Switzerland, and club flying being affordable is relative. So yes, the club scene is mainly for people who can't or don't want to invest into their own glider. And that makes that we have a very strong gliding community, with clubs about everywhere. We had a new club member changing over from a neighbouring club (50 km away) because he had moved and didn't want to drive more than 30 km to the airfield. |
#117
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GLIDING INTERNATIONAL -- RESEARCH
Its true, there are many more numerous opportunities to soar in EU, and I am in no way denigrating the soaring there. The scene in north america is just very different. We have never been blessed with soaring integral to our culture like germany has had. Soaring is just one of many aspects of aviation available to us. It has been private powered flight and the freedom of the home building movement and the aviation entrepenurial spirit that we are blessed with. We can fly dang near anywhere we want, anytime we want. We can build and fly and modify dang near anything we can think up. That freedom exists nowhere else in the world. In addition, we have every type of soaring a guy would want to engage in be it monster wave, increadable ridges and convective conditions second to none except africa and australia. Except here, you don’t need multiple permits from different countries to move and fly in different conditions. IMOP there is no free’r place in the world to fly gliders.
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#118
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GLIDING INTERNATIONAL -- RESEARCH
On Tuesday, November 12, 2019 at 3:59:37 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 12, 2019 at 4:15:05 AM UTC-5, Peter F wrote: OK, I know I shouldn't but I'll bite anyway.. What freedom do you think you have in the US that we in Western Europe don't? Guns, speech, moreso than Europe, though they are coming hard for both here. More airspace freedom. Probably more land use freedom in general, big country lots of variable rules. We're still freer than Western Europe but we are catching up quick. November 7th was one year since I lost my former neighbor and outstanding community member to a mass shooter. https://www.foxla.com/video/622936?f...xB_X2bmiujVzFk Justin was a teenager when we were neighbors. I in my late fifties Justin was in his High School years. While a child in age this young man was the type of community member you would want in your neighborhood. He would chat me up about my thrice weekly open water swims with my dog. He would help carry furniture to my second floor. He carried groceries into the house while I was recovery from knee surgery. He told me his plans for college and beyond. Hs Father a Career Navy SEAL officer. I cannot tell you enough how much of an asset Justin was to any community he would have been in. Justin died to the hot lead of one of you precious ****ing guns, while breaking windows to help other escape. In his final moment he was still helping the community. |
#119
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GLIDING INTERNATIONAL -- RESEARCH
At 17:39 11 November 2019, Mike N. wrote:
"North Americans have to do everything the hard way........." Really? I'm not sure what part of Europe or South America you might be from, but this type of comment is so simplistic it becomes irrelevant and laughable. In the U.S.A. flying gliders or powered aircraft is open to a broader population than other countries where recreational flying is typically only obtainable by the wealthy. Being able to enjoy the wonders of flight, without having to be wealthy as in other countries, is a fantastic opportunity in the U.S.A. not available in many other parts of the world. I appreciate that aspect of american life. That does mean however that those of us who fly on a budget may not be in a club that owns an expensive motor glider. We have a mixture of clubs in the U.S., some with more resources than others. The previous post that suggested taking a powered flight and training in off airport landings makes the most sense in the U.S. market in my opinion. Even if you are not a power pilot, spending a few hours with a power instructor just practicing off airport landing procedures will benefit glider pilots. That training is all about the fundamentals of off airport landings (land outs). Determining wind direction, picking a suitable field, slope, setting up a pattern, etc. Then actually simulating an approach to land. $.02 paid in full. YMMV. Maybe Africa or Asia eh? they soar there too. Just an opinion from many years of observation...when it comes to soaring. Your statement that flying gliders is open to a broader population than other countries where recreational flying is typically only obtainable by the wealthy is just pure B/S. There are many more clubs in Europe that allow cheap glider flying in decent equipment. Have you ever actually visited a European gliding club? Look at the active youth scene in Europe compared with the USA for example, look at some of the club gliders that most Europeans can fly at reasonable cost, off a cheap winch launches - then compare it with the POS Schweizers most clubs use in the USA. Power flying is another matter granted- its cheaper in the USA, but then that's not gliding - but a Scheibe motorglider is hardly what I'd call an expensive aircraft and cheap to run. Derek Piggott did try to convert you all many years ago. |
#120
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GLIDING INTERNATIONAL -- RESEARCH
Sounds like Justin was quite a guy and his loss was tragic.
But, Jonathan why do you blame the gun rather than the shooter?* Do you blame cars for traffic deaths?* Unattended camp fires for wild fires?* What makes guns the target when every other tragedy is rightfully blamed on the person who caused it? BTW, none of my guns have ever injured anybody and they never will, unless that body is threatening me or my loved ones. On 11/12/2019 4:20 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote: On Tuesday, November 12, 2019 at 3:59:37 AM UTC-8, wrote: On Tuesday, November 12, 2019 at 4:15:05 AM UTC-5, Peter F wrote: OK, I know I shouldn't but I'll bite anyway.. What freedom do you think you have in the US that we in Western Europe don't? Guns, speech, moreso than Europe, though they are coming hard for both here. More airspace freedom. Probably more land use freedom in general, big country lots of variable rules. We're still freer than Western Europe but we are catching up quick. November 7th was one year since I lost my former neighbor and outstanding community member to a mass shooter. https://www.foxla.com/video/622936?f...xB_X2bmiujVzFk Justin was a teenager when we were neighbors. I in my late fifties Justin was in his High School years. While a child in age this young man was the type of community member you would want in your neighborhood. He would chat me up about my thrice weekly open water swims with my dog. He would help carry furniture to my second floor. He carried groceries into the house while I was recovery from knee surgery. He told me his plans for college and beyond. Hs Father a Career Navy SEAL officer. I cannot tell you enough how much of an asset Justin was to any community he would have been in. Justin died to the hot lead of one of you precious ****ing guns, while breaking windows to help other escape. In his final moment he was still helping the community. -- Dan, 5J |
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