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Does an IPC count as a BFR?



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 16th 04, 02:55 AM
Mark Kolber
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On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:50:15 -0800, "C J Campbell"
wrote:

Why on earth would any instructor do that, and how could he possibly do any
CFII instruction in an airplane that he is not allowed to give instruction
in?


I'm surprised you never came across it before.

This is a question that comes up from time to time and the common
wisdom has been that a CFI with only an "instrument airplane" rating,
but no "airplane" rating is permitted to provide instrument training
in an airplane, so long as he doesn't cross the line into teaching how
to fly the airplane itself.

Even John Lynch's Part 61 FAQ has taken this view, saying such things
as a CFII with no MEI =can't= give training in one-engine failure
during takeoff but =can= give instruction in single-engine operations
under instrument conditions.

Those FAQ paragraphs are going to become defunct. As a result of an
inquiry by Ron Levy, an instructor at the University of Maryland and a
regular contributor to Aviation Safety Magazine, the Eastern Region
FAA legal counsel has started the process of putting that one to rest.

There are still some things a CFII with no aircraft rating can do.
Ground instruction and flight training in a simulator are two of them.

As to why, it's pretty hokey, but there's some theory going around
that the CFI-I is easier, so, if you have to have an inspector for the
first ride, it might as well be the easier one.


  #22  
Old March 16th 04, 05:10 AM
Mark Manes
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"Michael" wrote in message
om...
"C J Campbell" wrote
It may be your policy, but it does not really follow the regs. Yes, I

know
the argument that the instructor certificate is not a pilot certificate,

but
it sure gets treated as a pilot certificate for all other purposes. I

also
know that the policy varies from one FSDO to another.


Actually, it varies from one inspector to another.

Not too long ago, we had a jumpship crash. The pilot did all the
right things, but when the engine of a heavy single fails in the climb
at 400 ft, you just don't have many options. The field was wet and
rough, and there was substantial damage but no injuries. The accident
was reported, and the investigation delegated to the FAA. The pilot
made the mistake of noting that he never seems to hear of automobile
engines having catastrophic failures, but certified airplane engines
fail with depressing regularity. Next thing you know, he's written up
for flying with an expired BFR - enven though he had taken his CFII
ride only a few months ago. Your tax dollars at work.

I also know that most
examiners will sign the ride off as a BFR if you ask them to do that.


That's another gray area, worse than the original.

61.56 Flight review.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (f) of this section, a
flight
review consists of a minimum of 1 hour of flight training and 1 hour
of ground
training.

The FAA is pretty adamant that a checkride is not instruction.


But a checkride does count as a BFR

" 61.56 Flight Review
(d) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this
section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by and examiner, an
approved pilot check airman, or a US Armed Force, for a pilot certificate,
rating or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required
by this section."

Not sure if CFI checkride counts as above, but adding an instrument rating
does count as a BFR. Adding a Multi Engine or MEI counts as a BFR.

Mark


Personally, I don't understand why the instructor doesn't just sign
the BFR. There's no way I would be comfortable signing someone off
for a CFI ride and not willing to sign off a BFR.

Michael



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  #23  
Old March 16th 04, 07:33 AM
C J Campbell
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"Mark Manes" wrote in message
...

"Michael" wrote in message
om...
"C J Campbell" wrote

I also know that most
examiners will sign the ride off as a BFR if you ask them to do that.


That's another gray area, worse than the original.

61.56 Flight review.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (f) of this section, a
flight
review consists of a minimum of 1 hour of flight training and 1 hour
of ground
training.

The FAA is pretty adamant that a checkride is not instruction.


But a checkride does count as a BFR


Which is the most stupid thing about the whole idea that a CFI ride does not
count as one. You can go and get your hot air balloon or glider certificate
and that counts as a BFR for your multi-engine seaplane certificate that you
already have, but becoming a MEI with a commercial multi-engine seaplane
certificate does not count as a BFR.

In theory, a private pilot SEL who has not flown in forty years can get his
BFR in a balloon, do his three touch & goes in a Cessna 150, then carry
passengers in his homebuilt Lancair even though he has never in his life
flown anything but balloons and the 150. Apparently some people in the FAA
believe that this pilot is actually more competent than a CFI who just got
his certificate in that Lancair.


  #24  
Old March 16th 04, 09:09 AM
Doug
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Someone getting an instrument rating in a tailwheel aircraft, and the
instructor doesn't have a tailwheel signoff comes to mind.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...
"Brad Z" wrote in message
news:gTl4c.16400$bP2.83279@attbi_s53...
If your flight instructor certificate only has a "instrument-airplane"
rating (i.e. no airplane single engine or Airplane multi engine)


That is one of the most bizarre things I have ever heard, and that despite
the fact that I have been reading the news groups for years.... :-)

Why on earth would any instructor do that, and how could he possibly do any
CFII instruction in an airplane that he is not allowed to give instruction
in?

  #25  
Old March 16th 04, 01:11 PM
Matthew S. Whiting
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C J Campbell wrote:
"Mark Manes" wrote in message
...

"Michael" wrote in message
.com...

"C J Campbell" wrote


I also know that most
examiners will sign the ride off as a BFR if you ask them to do that.

That's another gray area, worse than the original.

61.56 Flight review.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (f) of this section, a
flight
review consists of a minimum of 1 hour of flight training and 1 hour
of ground
training.

The FAA is pretty adamant that a checkride is not instruction.


But a checkride does count as a BFR



Which is the most stupid thing about the whole idea that a CFI ride does not
count as one. You can go and get your hot air balloon or glider certificate
and that counts as a BFR for your multi-engine seaplane certificate that you
already have, but becoming a MEI with a commercial multi-engine seaplane
certificate does not count as a BFR.


It isn't just the checkride that counts as the BFR, it is the fact that
you added a license or rating. Most that I'm familiar with require a
lot of preparation in addition to passing the checkride. I don't think
there is any illusion that the checkride itself contributes to
proficiency, it is the preparation leading up to it that does.

No clue why a CFI doesn't count. That does seem like a dumb one.


In theory, a private pilot SEL who has not flown in forty years can get his
BFR in a balloon, do his three touch & goes in a Cessna 150, then carry
passengers in his homebuilt Lancair even though he has never in his life
flown anything but balloons and the 150. Apparently some people in the FAA
believe that this pilot is actually more competent than a CFI who just got
his certificate in that Lancair.


Few have accused government regulation writers of being paragons of
logic. Unfortunately, many, if not most, regulations are the result of
an accident. Probably haven't yet had a PP SEL with a balloon rating
BFR go out and crash his Lancair....


Matt


Matt

  #26  
Old March 16th 04, 07:08 PM
Michael
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Mark Kolber wrote
As to why, it's pretty hokey, but there's some theory going around
that the CFI-I is easier, so, if you have to have an inspector for the
first ride, it might as well be the easier one.


The real reason is a little different. For all practical purposes,
you can't rent a complex airplane that isn't decades old. Any
determined fed can ground an airplane that old, and that's normal
practice in many FSDO's. If you go for an initial CFI ride in many
cases you get three inspectors - one ops and two maintenance. The ops
inspector starts your oral, and the maintenance inspectors start going
over the airplane. Oral ends when they ground it, and you get a pink
slip and, if you have the temerity to question their determination
(airplane not airworthy because the placard is curled up/TSO tag on
seatbelt unreadable/repair or alteration logged in logbook is major,
not minor, and requires Form 337) or the inspector just doesn't like
you, you get written up for flying an unairworthy airplane as well. I
know people who have had this happen, and there's at least one CFI on
this newsgroup who has his own story of something very similar.

The CFII ride need not be in a complex airplane - and new full-IFR
C-172's are available for rent all over. It's very difficult to
ground a new airplane. Thus I recommend that anyone doing an initial
CFI go over to a place that rents new C-172's and do the CFII first.

I did my initial CFI in a glider for the same reason - a new glider
was locally available for rent, and there was no way to flunk it
because it was new and completely unmodified - everything was just the
way it came from the factory.

Michael
  #27  
Old March 16th 04, 09:27 PM
David Brooks
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....and they never enter IMC, where there would be no legal PIC.

-- David Brooks

"Doug" wrote in message
om...
Someone getting an instrument rating in a tailwheel aircraft, and the
instructor doesn't have a tailwheel signoff comes to mind.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message

...
"Brad Z" wrote in message
news:gTl4c.16400$bP2.83279@attbi_s53...
If your flight instructor certificate only has a "instrument-airplane"
rating (i.e. no airplane single engine or Airplane multi engine)


That is one of the most bizarre things I have ever heard, and that

despite
the fact that I have been reading the news groups for years.... :-)

Why on earth would any instructor do that, and how could he possibly do

any
CFII instruction in an airplane that he is not allowed to give

instruction
in?



  #28  
Old March 17th 04, 08:01 AM
Hilton
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Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
No clue why a CFI doesn't count. That does seem like a dumb one.


A CFI checkride does count. It is written as such, and interpreted as such
by (me and) AOPA. Makes sense to me.

Hilton


  #29  
Old March 17th 04, 05:38 PM
Doug
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My take is that any rating requiring a checkride (with an designated
examiner), counts as a BFR. The key is "does it require a checkride?"
If yes then you have two more years. So a tailwheel signoff, by itself
is not a BFR, as it is only a signoff.

Using common sense, the CFI rating certainly should count. It is
pretty intense, requires a written test, ground school and a flight
test. Mine was exhaustive with 75 hours of ground school, 15 hours of
flight training and flying with 5 different instructors. Not all are
that exhaustive, but if someone tried to tell me it didn't qualify as
a BFR, I'd think that was pretty ridiculous. When you compare all that
to a two hour BFR, you see what I mean.

"Hilton" wrote in message thlink.net...
Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
No clue why a CFI doesn't count. That does seem like a dumb one.


A CFI checkride does count. It is written as such, and interpreted as such
by (me and) AOPA. Makes sense to me.

Hilton

  #30  
Old March 18th 04, 07:02 PM
Richard Kaplan
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Related to this question of earning a CFII but not a CFI, I have not done
what follows and I am not sure the regs make sense in this area, but from a
strictly legal perspective I believe I can give an instrument proficiency
check in a multi-engine airplane even though I am not a multi-engine pilot.
My certificates are Commercial Pilot (ASEL + Instrument Airplane) and CFI
(Airplane Single Engine + Instrument Airplane).

Again I realize this may not make much sense from an instructional point of
view, but legally I do not see any reason I could not do this except (even
more oddly) that this would have to be done in actual IMC because I would
not be qualified to act as a safety pilot -- correct?

Perhaps somewhat more practically speaking, I see no reason why I could not
sign off an IPC done with my simulator (Level 3 FTD) in twin-engine mode
since I do not need to be PIC to "create" IMC in the simulator and my CFI
instrument privileges refer to instrument airplane and not specifically to
single- or multi-engine airplanes.

Indeed, extending this further, my understanding is that a non-pilot could
pass the written exam to become an Instrument Ground Instructor and then
without ever setting foot in an airplane he could do an IPC in the simulator
(again a Level 3 FTD) and this non-pilot would have the authority to sign
off the pilot of a cabin-class twin as safe to fly in IMC.

Again, I am not proposing any of these tasks as sane -- I am simply asking
whether my interpretation of the FARs is correct.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com


 




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