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#31
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Fo me, the airplane was much of the issue. My clubs complex single (Piper
Lance) was pretty solidly scheduled, and when it wasn't scheduled, it was down for various maintenance issues. Add to that an engine that passed TBO and my determination was that the risk of the airplane being unavailable when the checkride was due became too great. The club has two 172's and a 182, so I knew I wouldn't have a problem showing up for the checkride with an airplane. I'm considering adding my multi-engine airplane rating to my instructor certificate next, and will finish up with single-engine, preventing the need to bother with a complex single all together. In the meantime, I'm instructing instrument students while I work on the rest of my ratings. As to the point of taking the CFI-I at the FSDO because it is the easiest, keep in mind that you are still tested on all of the FOI material and must plan and conduct a lesson, so its substantially more than a CFI-I add-on. Maybe a better way to frame this is that it's a matter of dividing the instructor checkrides into more manageable pieces. Others have also suggested that starting as an instructor of pilots who already know how to fly is somehow "easier", or a way to ease into flight instruction. My experience has been that while this may or may not be true, an instrument instructor spends a fair amount of time correcting bad habits formed over the time since the student passed their private checkride (and in some cases before). Nevertheless, even if I never instruct a primary student, I will still get my airplane instructor ratings. Brad Z. "Michael" wrote in message om... Mark Kolber wrote As to why, it's pretty hokey, but there's some theory going around that the CFI-I is easier, so, if you have to have an inspector for the first ride, it might as well be the easier one. The real reason is a little different. For all practical purposes, you can't rent a complex airplane that isn't decades old. Any determined fed can ground an airplane that old, and that's normal practice in many FSDO's. If you go for an initial CFI ride in many cases you get three inspectors - one ops and two maintenance. The ops inspector starts your oral, and the maintenance inspectors start going over the airplane. Oral ends when they ground it, and you get a pink slip and, if you have the temerity to question their determination (airplane not airworthy because the placard is curled up/TSO tag on seatbelt unreadable/repair or alteration logged in logbook is major, not minor, and requires Form 337) or the inspector just doesn't like you, you get written up for flying an unairworthy airplane as well. I know people who have had this happen, and there's at least one CFI on this newsgroup who has his own story of something very similar. The CFII ride need not be in a complex airplane - and new full-IFR C-172's are available for rent all over. It's very difficult to ground a new airplane. Thus I recommend that anyone doing an initial CFI go over to a place that rents new C-172's and do the CFII first. I did my initial CFI in a glider for the same reason - a new glider was locally available for rent, and there was no way to flunk it because it was new and completely unmodified - everything was just the way it came from the factory. Michael |
#32
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"Richard Kaplan" wrote
Related to this question of earning a CFII but not a CFI, I have not done what follows and I am not sure the regs make sense in this area, but from a strictly legal perspective I believe I can give an instrument proficiency check in a multi-engine airplane even though I am not a multi-engine pilot. My certificates are Commercial Pilot (ASEL + Instrument Airplane) and CFI (Airplane Single Engine + Instrument Airplane). I do not believe this is correct. 61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications. A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the following limitations: (b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold: (1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and For purposes of an instructor certificate, there are two classes within the airplane category - ASE and AME. For purposes of a pilot certificate, there are four classes within the airplane category - ASEL, ASES, AMEL, and AMES. Thus, since you do not have a pilot certificate with airplane category and multiengine land class (AMEL) rating, I do not believe you could legally provide flight training in a multiengine airplane. Perhaps somewhat more practically speaking, I see no reason why I could not sign off an IPC done with my simulator (Level 3 FTD) in twin-engine mode since I do not need to be PIC to "create" IMC in the simulator and my CFI instrument privileges refer to instrument airplane and not specifically to single- or multi-engine airplanes. You may be right, but this would be meaningless. 61.57(d)(1) The instrument proficiency check must be -- (i) In an aircraft that is appropriate to the aircraft category; (ii) For other than a glider, in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of the aircraft category; Note that there is no requirement for the simulator to be representative of the class of aircraft, only the category. There is no requirement for a multiengine pilot to take his IPC in a multiengine airplane - any airplane will do. I see no reason why you couldn't do this, but I also see no reason why anyone would ever want to. It would have no regulatory purpose, and if you lack multinegine experience it would have no practical purpose either. Indeed, extending this further, my understanding is that a non-pilot could pass the written exam to become an Instrument Ground Instructor and then without ever setting foot in an airplane he could do an IPC in the simulator (again a Level 3 FTD) and this non-pilot would have the authority to sign off the pilot of a cabin-class twin as safe to fly in IMC. Maybe, but I don't see that as obvious. 61.215 Ground instructor privileges. (c) A person who holds an instrument ground instructor rating is authorized to provide: (2) Ground training required for an instrument proficiency check; 61.57(d)(2) The instrument proficiency check must be given by -- (iv) An authorized instructor; So the question would be - is the sim training ground or flight training? If it's ground training, then an IGI would be an authorized instructor and this would be legal. If it's flight training, then he would not be authorized and it wouldn't be legal. Michael |
#33
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-- -------------------- Richard Kaplan, CFII www.flyimc.com "Michael" wrote in message om... "Richard Kaplan" wrote Related to this question of earning a CFII but not a CFI, I have not done what follows and I am not sure the regs make sense in this area, but from a strictly legal perspective I believe I can give an instrument proficiency check in a multi-engine airplane even though I am not a multi-engine pilot. My certificates are Commercial Pilot (ASEL + Instrument Airplane) and CFI (Airplane Single Engine + Instrument Airplane). I do not believe this is correct. 61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications. A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the following limitations: (b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold: (1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and For purposes of an instructor certificate, there are two classes within the airplane category - ASE and AME. For purposes of a pilot certificate, there are four classes within the airplane category - ASEL, ASES, AMEL, and AMES. Thus, since you do not have a pilot certificate with airplane category and multiengine land class (AMEL) rating, I do not believe you could legally provide flight training in a multiengine airplane. Perhaps somewhat more practically speaking, I see no reason why I could not sign off an IPC done with my simulator (Level 3 FTD) in twin-engine mode since I do not need to be PIC to "create" IMC in the simulator and my CFI instrument privileges refer to instrument airplane and not specifically to single- or multi-engine airplanes. You may be right, but this would be meaningless. 61.57(d)(1) The instrument proficiency check must be -- (i) In an aircraft that is appropriate to the aircraft category; (ii) For other than a glider, in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of the aircraft category; Note that there is no requirement for the simulator to be representative of the class of aircraft, only the category. There is no requirement for a multiengine pilot to take his IPC in a multiengine airplane - any airplane will do. I see no reason why you couldn't do this, but I also see no reason why anyone would ever want to. It would have no regulatory purpose, and if you lack multinegine experience it would have no practical purpose either. Indeed, extending this further, my understanding is that a non-pilot could pass the written exam to become an Instrument Ground Instructor and then without ever setting foot in an airplane he could do an IPC in the simulator (again a Level 3 FTD) and this non-pilot would have the authority to sign off the pilot of a cabin-class twin as safe to fly in IMC. Maybe, but I don't see that as obvious. 61.215 Ground instructor privileges. (c) A person who holds an instrument ground instructor rating is authorized to provide: (2) Ground training required for an instrument proficiency check; 61.57(d)(2) The instrument proficiency check must be given by -- (iv) An authorized instructor; So the question would be - is the sim training ground or flight training? If it's ground training, then an IGI would be an authorized instructor and this would be legal. If it's flight training, then he would not be authorized and it wouldn't be legal. Michael |
#34
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Doug wrote:
Using common sense, the CFI rating certainly should count. It is pretty intense, requires a written test, ground school and a flight test. Mine was exhaustive with 75 hours of ground school, 15 hours of flight training and flying with 5 different instructors. Not all are that exhaustive, but if someone tried to tell me it didn't qualify as a BFR, I'd think that was pretty ridiculous. When you compare all that to a two hour BFR, you see what I mean. Just contacted AOPA and my FSDO about this. In short, any practical exam that tests an applicant's piloting skills qualifies under the 61.56 BFR exemption. I was particularly concerned since my last qualifying exam was almost two years ago, and if I'd been flying illegally all this time.....well, I don't want to think about it. An excerpt from AOPA's response: 'If the examiner also evaluates the applicant's piloting skills then YES, ". . . a flight instructor practical test (for initial issuance or a CFI rating addition or for a reinstatement) . . ." would meet the requirements of a § 61.56 Flight Review.' My FSDO's examiner did some research and called me back, only to confirm this. His interpretation is slightly contradictory to what others have pointed out here, in that he called the CFI certificate a "pilot certificate" because (and I quote) "we don't give those to truck drivers". However, he nevertheless agreed with your common-sense approach. A BFR is a joke compared to the preparation and demonstrations required for any CFI certificate / rating. That said, if you choose to renew your CFI certificate without a practical test, then you would need to accomplish a flight review before the end of the 24th calendar month since your last practical exam. Safe flying, -Doug -- -------------------- Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA http://www.dvcfi.com -------------------- |
#35
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"Michael" wrote in message om...: (b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicabl category and class rating; and I agree that on first glance this would prohibit me from providing flight instruction in a twin because both my pilot certificate and my instructor certificate would need to contain both the Category Airplane and the Class Single-Engine Land. Yet if this is true, then how can there exist flight instructor certificates which only state "Instrument Airplane" because a strict interpretation of the above would render such an instructor certificate useless. It would seem to me that by using the term "Instrument Airplane" on pilot and instructor certificates the FAA has created a Class of airplane simply called "Instrument." For purposes of an instructor certificate, there are two classes within the airplane category - ASE and AME. For purposes of a pilot What happens in the case of a CFII without a CFI. In that case doesn't the instructor certificate read solely "Instrument Airplane"? In that case, what is the category and class? You may be right, but this would be meaningless. Meaningless but legal -- yes, I agree. Again, I am not proposing I or any other single-engine CFI do this. It just seems to be a loophole in the FARS, probably a dangerous loophole at that. So the question would be - is the sim training ground or flight training? If it's ground training, then an IGI would be an authorized instructor and this would be legal. If it's flight training, then he would not be authorized and it wouldn't be legal. It is ground training but the ground training can serve as a legal IPC so it does seem to be a loophole again as I understand it. -------------------- Richard Kaplan, CFII www.flyimc.com |
#36
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"Richard Kaplan" wrote
I agree that on first glance this would prohibit me from providing flight instruction in a twin because both my pilot certificate and my instructor certificate would need to contain both the Category Airplane and the Class Single-Engine Land. Yet if this is true, then how can there exist flight instructor certificates which only state "Instrument Airplane" because a strict interpretation of the above would render such an instructor certificate useless. I concur that strict interpretation would render a CFI-IA with no other ratings useless. In reality, we know the rule is not interpreted that way. So once again the rules are not clear. You may be right, but this would be meaningless. Meaningless but legal -- yes, I agree. Again, I am not proposing I or any other single-engine CFI do this. It just seems to be a loophole in the FARS, probably a dangerous loophole at that. No, my point is that this loophole - a non-multiengine CFII giving dual in a sim configured as a twin for purposes of an IPC - is not dangerous at all. For purposes of legality, an IPC given in a single also covers you in a twin. The only difference between the single and twin IPC is the engine-out stuff; otherwise the twin flies just like a complex single. So my point is that the loophole would allow you to teach and evaluate the multiengine portion of the ICC, and you probably could not do that competently, but it's not required anyway. So the question would be - is the sim training ground or flight training? If it's ground training, then an IGI would be an authorized instructor and this would be legal. If it's flight training, then he would not be authorized and it wouldn't be legal. It is ground training but the ground training can serve as a legal IPC so it does seem to be a loophole again as I understand it. Now this is a dangerous loophole - all you need to do to be an IGI is take two written multiple-guess tests. I would imagine this would be well within the capability of most professionals with no flight experience at all... Michael |
#37
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"Michael" wrote in message
om... complex single. So my point is that the loophole would allow you to teach and evaluate the multiengine portion of the ICC, and you probably could not do that competently, but it's not required anyway. OK, I agree there. Maybe this is actually helpful because if a twin-engine pilot came to me to use my sim specifically so I could teach him how to use a specific GPS or because he wanted to practice 0/0 landings then I could put the sim in twin-engine mode to make him comfortable and still legally log the instruction. Now this is a dangerous loophole - all you need to do to be an IGI is take two written multiple-guess tests. I would imagine this would be well within the capability of most professionals with no flight experience at all... Yes, it is dangerous. I think in practice the way this is mostly used is to allow rated pilots who are seeking the CFI rating to gain some experience instructing in a flight training device. But the loophole does exist as you note for someone who has never been inside an airplane in his life to sign off an IPC. -------------------- Richard Kaplan, CFII www.flyimc.com |
#38
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There is no loophole as far as an IGI is concerned with reference to
his signing off an IPC. As per the part 61 regs, he may give the ground training required for an IPC, but there is no provision that allows him to give an endorsement for the IPC itself. This has been answered through the FAQ's before and has been gone over during every examiner recurrent seminar I have attended. A CFII is given that privilege, however if you look at the wording of privileges given to ground instructors, only endorsements for knowledge tests and ground training are allowed. They are not allowed to endorse for any recency of experience issue. An IPC consists of both ground and flight examination, as per the rating task table of the instrument PTS. A person who has never been in an aircraft, even though he holds a ground instructor certificate, can not give an IPC any more than he can give a flight review. Just compare the privileges of a CFII vs. a ground instructor, as per the Part 61 regs. On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:22:25 GMT, "Richard Kaplan" wrote: "Michael" wrote in message . com... complex single. So my point is that the loophole would allow you to teach and evaluate the multiengine portion of the ICC, and you probably could not do that competently, but it's not required anyway. OK, I agree there. Maybe this is actually helpful because if a twin-engine pilot came to me to use my sim specifically so I could teach him how to use a specific GPS or because he wanted to practice 0/0 landings then I could put the sim in twin-engine mode to make him comfortable and still legally log the instruction. Now this is a dangerous loophole - all you need to do to be an IGI is take two written multiple-guess tests. I would imagine this would be well within the capability of most professionals with no flight experience at all... Yes, it is dangerous. I think in practice the way this is mostly used is to allow rated pilots who are seeking the CFI rating to gain some experience instructing in a flight training device. But the loophole does exist as you note for someone who has never been inside an airplane in his life to sign off an IPC. -------------------- Richard Kaplan, CFII www.flyimc.com |
#39
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"Bill Zaleski" wrote in message
... of experience issue. An IPC consists of both ground and flight examination, as per the rating task table of the instrument PTS. A I agree for the most part with what you are saying. However, a flight training device may be used as a substitute for the flight portion of the IPC. The definition of flight time in 1.1 requires an aircraft for flight. Therefore, it would seem that the training done in a flight training device is legally ground training rather than flight training. Let us take the other side of what you are saying and conclude that an IGI can only perform the ground training elements of the PTS and not the flight elements. Well there is no mechanism in Part 91 for an IPC to be done by 2 separate instructors; the only way 2 separate instructors can work on an IPC is through a certified school such as a Part 142 school. So if an IGI cannot sign off an IPC in a flight training device, then the IGI would have no role at all for a Part 91 IPC. -------------------- Richard Kaplan, CFII www.flyimc.com |
#40
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