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Audio of Lancaster Under nightfighter attack



 
 
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  #41  
Old November 16th 03, 12:38 AM
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"Pete" wrote:


"Gord Beaman" wrote

On current aircraft, the fail mode is safe. The arming solenoids need

power
to energize and retain the clip and wire.

The ejector carts run on different, multiple circuits.

Pete

Thanks Pete, I didn't know that, I wonder what the rationale
would be for the change?... Could it be that during WW2 they
considered it more important to avoid a failed bomb run than they
do now?. Interesting indeed.
--


That's probably the case. Peacetime vs WWII mindset. Better design and
greater reliability reduces the chance of the mechanism failing, so we can
default to the 'safe' mode, and arm only on request.

Consider a training mission, with live ordnance. Aircraft has a problem, and
the pilot has to jettison the munitions. Do we jettison safe or armed? Since
we are always over friendly territory, defaulting to safe mode would be
preferable.

Pete

Certainly sounds plausable...
--

-Gord.
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  #42  
Old November 17th 03, 05:46 AM
Peter Stickney
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In article ,
"Gord Beaman" ) writes:
(Peter Stickney) wrote:

I was able to make out the serial on the aft fuselage. It's
definitely a Lanc. (Although if it _were_ a Manchester, that would
explain the lack of engine noise.


Sure...two engines vice four...

I have to agree with you, Gord. While I don't have any flights in a
Lancaster, I've seen and heard one, and I've flown/ridden in teh C-47,
C-123, C-131 (Recip Cosmo), and C-118 (DC-6), and the one common
denominator is the constant noise and vibration. Even when the noise
is cut back by the headsets, the vibration's always there. I can't
see any sort of the disk-cutters they used back then being isolated
from that. While the Germans had made an early form of tape recorder,
it wasn't a practical or portable system, using what were essentially
bandsaw blades moved at high speed as the recording medium.


Quite true, and here's another possibility(?) for a recording
medium...The Lancs that we had in the early/mid fifties were
equipped with a 'magnetic wire recorder'. They were used to
record the sonobuoys audio output of underwater sounds. Do you
suppose they may have had those during the war years?...Ours was
a cute lil guy about 1,5 feet long, 8 inches high by 4 inches
wide. You could see the two wire spools through the glass in the
front loading door, The wire looked very thin and looked like
shiny steel. (be aware that the memory of those measurements etc
is some 50 years old!)


Sorry for taking so long, but...
I did some checking, and I'd be very surprised if any airborne audio
recordings from that era were made on Wire Recorders. While the basic
idea of Wire Recorders had been around since the 1920s, the recorders
were refrigerator-sized monstrosities that had really lousy frequency
bandwidth, and horrible signal/noise ratios. Some were built and sold
as telephone messaging systems, and some were used for dictation.
None were remotely portable. In mid 1943, advances in low-noise
amplifiers, and miniaturized vacuum tubes (valves) allowed Marvin
Camras, of the Armour Research Foundation to build a portable,
reliable wire recorder. The U.S. Navy ordered 1,000 ARF Wire
Recorders, to be lisence-built by G.E.
http://www.videointerchange.com/wire_recorder1.htm
is a good place to start. It seems that wire recorders had one
advantage over tapes - splicing was done with a square knot.

These military recorders were used as audio and analog data recirders
in large ASW and ELINT (Ferret) aircraft, and are, no doubt, the
direct ancestor of teh unit in your P2V. I'm willing to bet Local
Currency vs. Local Breakfast Pastry that there wasn't one used in a
Bomber Command Lancaster to record a Night Raid for the BBC.

As to the comment from another post in this thread, yes, lip mikes
existed, but that theory falls down on two points. If I'm remembering
things correctly, you can't just plug one into a system intended for
Carbon mikes - As I Seem To Recall, there are impedance matching
issues that require some manner of additional circuitry. It wouldn't
have been impossible, but I can't imagine the RAF restringing the
interphone system on a single Lancaster just to accomodate the
Propaganda Campaign. The other factor is that lip mikes and Oxygen
Masks don't mix. Bomber Command Lancs spent their missions at night
up past 18,000', and supplemental Oxygen is necessary t those heights,
and very useful at much lower altitudes. (The extra O2 increases night
vision). There should be 8 or 9 guys on that airplane, all waring
Oxygen masks, and all, at som epoint, talking on the intercom, with
the mask microphones. We ought to hear _somebody_ breathing,
dagnabbit!

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
  #43  
Old November 17th 03, 04:59 PM
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(Peter Stickney) wrote:

http://www.videointerchange.com/wire_recorder1.htm
is a good place to start.


....and end too I'd say...everything that you ever wanted to know
about wire recoeders!...great source of clues indeed.

It seems that wire recorders had one
advantage over tapes - splicing was done with a square knot.

These military recorders were used as audio and analog data recirders
in large ASW and ELINT (Ferret) aircraft, and are, no doubt, the
direct ancestor of teh unit in your P2V.


Actually, it was in our Lancs that I saw them, mind you, this was
in the early fifties...

I'm willing to bet Local
Currency vs. Local Breakfast Pastry that there wasn't one used in a
Bomber Command Lancaster to record a Night Raid for the BBC.

I tend to agree...your article seems to affirm that.

As to the comment from another post in this thread, yes, lip mikes
existed, but that theory falls down on two points. If I'm remembering
things correctly, you can't just plug one into a system intended for
Carbon mikes - As I Seem To Recall, there are impedance matching
issues that require some manner of additional circuitry.


Quite true Peter, most modern intercom systems use dynamic
mics...better fidelity...less noise.


It wouldn't
have been impossible, but I can't imagine the RAF restringing the
interphone system on a single Lancaster just to accomodate the
Propaganda Campaign. The other factor is that lip mikes and Oxygen
Masks don't mix. Bomber Command Lancs spent their missions at night
up past 18,000', and supplemental Oxygen is necessary t those heights,
and very useful at much lower altitudes. (The extra O2 increases night
vision). There should be 8 or 9 guys on that airplane, all waring
Oxygen masks, and all, at som epoint, talking on the intercom, with
the mask microphones. We ought to hear _somebody_ breathing,
dagnabbit!


And more than that oxygen masks mics sound very hollow and
muffled, They're much harder to understand than either carbon or
dynamic mics...no way these guys were wearing oxygen masks.

Mind you, they could have been bombing from lower level, but the
whole scenario just doesn't jell with me. I just cannot listen to
the audio and imagine that it's coming from a Lanc crew on a
bombing run...even factoring in the near 50 year time lapse it
still doesn't impress me as being plausible.

My memory of those years is crystal clear...
--

-Gord.
  #44  
Old November 17th 03, 08:14 PM
M. J. Powell
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In message , Peter Stickney
writes

snip

As to the comment from another post in this thread, yes, lip mikes
existed, but that theory falls down on two points. If I'm remembering
things correctly, you can't just plug one into a system intended for
Carbon mikes - As I Seem To Recall, there are impedance matching
issues that require some manner of additional circuitry. It wouldn't
have been impossible, but I can't imagine the RAF restringing the
interphone system on a single Lancaster just to accomodate the
Propaganda Campaign.


The lip mic would have fed the small mixer unit at the recorder. The a/c
intercom would be another input, suitably padded down.

The other factor is that lip mikes and Oxygen
Masks don't mix.


Yes, I imagined WVT using an oxygen mask until he wanted to speak then
unclipping, saying his stuff, then clipping back up.
d
Bomber Command Lancs spent their missions at night
up past 18,000', and supplemental Oxygen is necessary t those heights,
and very useful at much lower altitudes. (The extra O2 increases night
vision). There should be 8 or 9 guys on that airplane, all waring
Oxygen masks, and all, at som epoint, talking on the intercom, with
the mask microphones. We ought to hear _somebody_ breathing,
dagnabbit!


Was it common practice to stay switched off until you wanted to say
something?

In my recording, there is no breathing audible. Everyone was 'off' until
speaking.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell
  #45  
Old November 17th 03, 10:07 PM
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"M. J. Powell" wrote:


Was it common practice to stay switched off until you wanted to say
something?

In my recording, there is no breathing audible. Everyone was 'off' until
speaking.

Mike


Yes Mike, that's the drill, although for take-off and landing on
some aircraft the pilots and engineers are supposed to go to 'hot
mics'. I never liked hot mics much, lets too much noise into the
intercom. The left seat on The Argus was always on for landing
though and it was easy to see how hard he was working by the
sound of his breathing...kind of funny at times, nobody seems to
know how he sounds himself. That's another reason that the audio
sounded unreal, no mic clicks and 'hiss' indicating an open mic.
--

-Gord.
  #46  
Old December 5th 16, 03:42 PM
ffsear ffsear is offline
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Posts: 1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Eadsforth View Post

1. The pilot is instructed to keep weaving after the navigator has
announced half a minute to go before bomb drop (and before the fighter
puts in an appearance). If the bomb aimer were staring through the bomb
sight stabilisation glass at that time, to get a straight run in on the
target, the last thing he would have wanted was a weave. And just who
is asking for the weave? Usually such a command was only given by a
gunner who had definitely seen a fighter - not the case at that time.
Then the pilot is told to steer 'left, left' - such a precise order
would not be given by the bomb aimer until the pilot had been told to
stop any weaving.

2. Then the pilot asks for more revs. Why - just at the time the bomb
aimer needs constant speed maintained for his bomb sight predicting
computer? This doesn't feel quite right.

3. Finally, the pilot is instructed to weave again at a time when the
bomber should have been flying straight and level for the post-drop
picture to be taken, and before the night fighter is sighted.

4. And did they really put a mike in the rear turret to record the
sound of the Brownings?

The bombing sequence has the feel of jargon being bunged in by a script
writer who did not know the true sequence of events before and after a
bomb release.

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth
1. We know the mission was Berlin. It would have been an area bombing mission (the use of a cookie and incendiaries confirm this.) As the target itself would have been rather large, weaving to avoid/confuse flak gunners would not have been unusual nor caused the bombardier any problems. The instruction is actually coming from the bombardier anyway.

Rear gunners don't give the instruction to weave, they give the instruction to corkscrew.

2. As above, its an area bombing mission. No issues called by more revs. Pilot will be thinking about climbing away once the photorun has finished.

3. As long as they stay on course, weaving is not a problem.

4. The mid upper gunner got the kill, but even The sound is recorded from the crew's microphones, which picksup engine noise and the brownings. But most of all the picks up the voice of whoever is speaking into them, otherwise, what good do they serve? Recording or no recording.
 




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