Leading Turns With Rudder

On Jul 21, 3:27 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 21, 12:11 pm, PMSC Member wrote:

On Jul 21, 12:53 pm, sisu1a wrote:

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. [snip]

If true, this guy ought to have his CFIG revoked.

End of story.

And that would be why? You'd be revoking a lot of CFIG tickets.

Along with emphasizing the importance of foot work, hopefully he's
talked about the dangers of over ruddering and stall/spin accidents
and talked about how different gliders handle and may or may not
really benefit from early rudder application. And hopefully he really
works on decreases focus on programatic things and transitions
students to developing a feel for flying these gliders.

Darryl


Let's not wander too far afield and make assumptions about what a
great guy this CFIG might otherwise be. We've been told he teaches
*student pilots* "that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing
you do is feed in rudder."

We all know there are certain gliders that, under certain
circumstances, are best flown with leading rudder. Typically, we're
talking about a glass ship with heavy wings (esp. with water) and
thermal entry at thermaling speed, at altitude.

Not trainers.

Not students.

Not if the spoilers are open.

Not in the pattern.

Not at low agl altitude under any circumstance.


Is is REALLY necessary to review the stats on stall/spin accidents,
AGAIN?

I have never in 20 odd years met an instructor that teaches students
this way, and have great difficulty believing this is as common as you
suggest.

This doesn't worry you? You don't understand the problem. And you
aren't going to figure it out reading usenet :-). See a good CFIG.

The idea that any CFIG would teach this way frankly astounds me. I
regard it as malpractice of the very worst sort. The fact that various
people on this group report this as a not uncommon practice troubles
me. To the extent that this is true, it supports the allegation that
many pilots simply don't have the knowledge to fly safely.

On Jul 21, 1:12*pm, PMSC Member wrote:
On Jul 21, 3:27 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:



On Jul 21, 12:11 pm, PMSC Member wrote:

On Jul 21, 12:53 pm, sisu1a wrote:

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. [snip]

If true, this guy ought to have his CFIG revoked.

End of story.

And that would be why? You'd be revoking a lot of CFIG tickets.

Along with emphasizing the importance of foot work, hopefully he's
talked about the dangers of over ruddering and stall/spin accidents
and talked about how different gliders handle and may or may not
really benefit from early rudder application. And hopefully he really
works on decreases focus on programatic things and transitions
students to developing a feel for flying these gliders.

Darryl

Let's not wander too far afield and make assumptions about what a
great guy this CFIG might otherwise be. *We've been told he teaches
*student pilots* "that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing
you do is feed in rudder."

We all know there are certain gliders that, under certain
circumstances, are best flown with leading rudder. *Typically, we're
talking about a glass ship with heavy wings (esp. with water) and
thermal entry at thermaling speed, at altitude.

Not trainers.

Not students.

Not if the spoilers are open.

Not in the pattern.

Not at low agl altitude under any circumstance.

Is is REALLY necessary to review the stats on stall/spin accidents,
AGAIN?

I have never in 20 odd years met an instructor that teaches students
this way, and have great difficulty believing this is as common as you
suggest.

This doesn't worry you? *You don't understand the problem. *And you
aren't going to figure it out reading usenet :-). *See a good CFIG.

The idea that any CFIG would teach this way frankly astounds me. *I
regard it as malpractice of the very worst sort. The fact that various
people on this group report this as a not uncommon practice troubles
me. *To the extent that this is true, it supports the allegation that
many pilots simply don't have the knowledge to fly safely.

Look, I was replying to you wandering afield and assuming the guy is
clueless and ought to have his ticked yanked. He could be the worse
instructor around, he might be the best. The point is just picking on
one statement does not prove anything. I laid out what sort of
discussion/other issues I'd expect a CFIG to raise. It is probably
useless to try to discuss somebody's professional teaching skills by
saying "he says X". I kind of doubt the discussion starts and ends
there with no more conversation with the student. What else does he
say? What caveats does he place on this? What does he demonstrate to
students, what practical lesson approach and drills does he have
students do to improve their feel for turn coordination, what is his
approach to incipient spin and spin training, etc. Oops we don't know
any of that but hell lets take away the guys ticket since somebody
says he says something.

Spouting off your opinion on usenet and then denegrating any opinions
on usenet is kind of amusing.

Darryl
(who leads with rudder frequently)

On Jul 21, 5:12 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 21, 1:12 pm, PMSC Member wrote:



On Jul 21, 3:27 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

On Jul 21, 12:11 pm, PMSC Member wrote:

On Jul 21, 12:53 pm, sisu1a wrote:

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. [snip]

If true, this guy ought to have his CFIG revoked.

End of story.

And that would be why? You'd be revoking a lot of CFIG tickets.

Along with emphasizing the importance of foot work, hopefully he's
talked about the dangers of over ruddering and stall/spin accidents
and talked about how different gliders handle and may or may not
really benefit from early rudder application. And hopefully he really
works on decreases focus on programatic things and transitions
students to developing a feel for flying these gliders.

Darryl

Let's not wander too far afield and make assumptions about what a
great guy this CFIG might otherwise be. We've been told he teaches
*student pilots* "that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing
you do is feed in rudder."

We all know there are certain gliders that, under certain
circumstances, are best flown with leading rudder. Typically, we're
talking about a glass ship with heavy wings (esp. with water) and
thermal entry at thermaling speed, at altitude.

Not trainers.

Not students.

Not if the spoilers are open.

Not in the pattern.

Not at low agl altitude under any circumstance.

Is is REALLY necessary to review the stats on stall/spin accidents,
AGAIN?

I have never in 20 odd years met an instructor that teaches students
this way, and have great difficulty believing this is as common as you
suggest.

This doesn't worry you? You don't understand the problem. And you
aren't going to figure it out reading usenet :-). See a good CFIG.

The idea that any CFIG would teach this way frankly astounds me. I
regard it as malpractice of the very worst sort. The fact that various
people on this group report this as a not uncommon practice troubles
me. To the extent that this is true, it supports the allegation that
many pilots simply don't have the knowledge to fly safely.

Look, I was replying to you wandering afield and assuming the guy is
clueless and ought to have his ticked yanked. He could be the worse
instructor around, he might be the best. The point is just picking on
one statement does not prove anything. I laid out what sort of
discussion/other issues I'd expect a CFIG to raise. It is probably
useless to try to discuss somebody's professional teaching skills by
saying "he says X". I kind of doubt the discussion starts and ends
there with no more conversation with the student. What else does he
say? What caveats does he place on this? What does he demonstrate to
students, what practical lesson approach and drills does he have
students do to improve their feel for turn coordination, what is his
approach to incipient spin and spin training, etc. Oops we don't know
any of that but hell lets take away the guys ticket since somebody
says he says something.

Spouting off your opinion on usenet and then denegrating any opinions
on usenet is kind of amusing.

Darryl
(who leads with rudder frequently)

Well I see you have this completely figured out. You certainly read a
lot more into this exchange than I (or anyone else) wrote, so this is
the end of it for me. Good luck & good soaring to you.

PMSC Member wrote:
We all know there are certain gliders that, under certain
circumstances, are best flown with leading rudder. Typically, we're
talking about a glass ship with heavy wings (esp. with water) and
thermal entry at thermaling speed, at altitude.

Not trainers.

Not students.

Not if the spoilers are open.

Not in the pattern.

Not at low agl altitude under any circumstance.


Is is REALLY necessary to review the stats on stall/spin accidents,
AGAIN?

I have never in 20 odd years met an instructor that teaches students
this way, and have great difficulty believing this is as common as you
suggest.

This doesn't worry you? You don't understand the problem. And you
aren't going to figure it out reading usenet :-). See a good CFIG.

The idea that any CFIG would teach this way frankly astounds me. I
regard it as malpractice of the very worst sort. The fact that various
people on this group report this as a not uncommon practice troubles
me. To the extent that this is true, it supports the allegation that
many pilots simply don't have the knowledge to fly safely.


Add me to the list of people who have been instructed by their first
instructor to turn mostly with rudder. This guy was routinely flying
at small distance from ridges using this method (it was at Pic Saint
Loup, France http://cvvm.free.fr/index/index.php), and he was the chief
instructor. One of his other sayings was "there are no good pilots,
there are old ones". I don't know how he lived to this principle,
because, indeed i fully agree with "PMSC Member". Especially when
all this was on an ASK 13, which does very nice spins. Of course
this junk was rationalized with a large infusion of crappy theories
about adverse yaw or whatever, when it is very clear that flying
perfectly symmetrical is always the optimum aerodynamically, and,
more important, the safest.

--

Michel TALON

On Jul 22, 5:44*am, (Michel Talon) wrote:
PMSC Member wrote:
We all know there are certain gliders that, under certain
circumstances, are best flown with leading rudder. *Typically, we're
talking about a glass ship with heavy wings (esp. with water) and
thermal entry at thermaling speed, at altitude.

Not trainers.

Not students.

Not if the spoilers are open.

Not in the pattern.

Not at low agl altitude under any circumstance.

Is is REALLY necessary to review the stats on stall/spin accidents,
AGAIN?

I have never in 20 odd years met an instructor that teaches students
this way, and have great difficulty believing this is as common as you
suggest.

This doesn't worry you? *You don't understand the problem. *And you
aren't going to figure it out reading usenet :-). *See a good CFIG.

The idea that any CFIG would teach this way frankly astounds me. *I
regard it as malpractice of the very worst sort. The fact that various
people on this group report this as a not uncommon practice troubles
me. *To the extent that this is true, it supports the allegation that
many pilots simply don't have the knowledge to fly safely.

Add me to the list of people who have been instructed by their first
instructor to turn mostly with rudder. This guy was routinely flying
at small distance from ridges using this method (it was at Pic Saint
Loup, Francehttp://cvvm.free.fr/index/index.php), and he was the chief
instructor. One of his other sayings was "there are no good pilots,
there are old ones". I don't know how he lived to this principle,
because, indeed i fully agree with "PMSC Member". Especially when
all this was on an ASK 13, which does very nice spins. Of course
this junk was rationalized with a large infusion of crappy theories
about adverse yaw or whatever, when it is very clear that flying
perfectly symmetrical is always the optimum aerodynamically, and,
more important, the safest.

--

Michel TALON

It is not clear the original post was "turn mostly wth rudder" - if so
that would be strange advice. I read this as "number 1 thing" is the
instructor is suggesting doing this first. Other instructors would
commonly state this as "lead with rudder" (which I think will be
fairly common advice or at least discussed by many instructors). Here
is a case where use of language could be confusing to students if not
properly explained, but again I hope there was a lot more explanation,
demonstration, practice etc. involved.

Darryl

all this was on an ASK 13, which does very nice spins. Of course
this junk was rationalized with a large infusion of crappy theories
about adverse yaw or whatever, when it is very clear that flying

I've heard a similiar theory: When flying along a ridge, always keep the
glider slightly slipping (keep the wing which points to the ridge
slightly leading), because like this, if you happen to fall in a spin,
it will turn away from the ridge...

As the instructor was in his seventies, I decided it wasn't worth a dispute.

On Jul 21, 11:53*am, sisu1a wrote:
Hi All,

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. On his 1-5 list of making a turn in a glider, #1 is
rudder (as it's own separate input). While this may be aerodynamically
acceptable practice for a 2-33, it seems a recipie for disaster in
other ships to begin a turn by intentionally skidding. Since in a
pinch, one has a tendency to revert to instincts that were first
learned/practiced (right OR wrong), I see this as a setup for possible
future problems.
Since I have issues with this, I want to gather some other opinions
(particularly those of *other CFI's) to help present a case to
possibly get this corrected. He holds little value of MYopinion, so I
was hoping to get some 'name brand' opinions to help my case. And if I
am just putting to much into this, I would rather hear it from this
group.

-Paul

I think we're talking about a slight difference in "timing" between
ailerons and rudder. I can't imagine this CFIG would have you actually
"yaw" the aircraft to any significant degree before applying aileron.
If that's what you're implying, then I'd say that's pretty strange.
John's post makes the most sense; "Do what you have to do to keep the
string centered."

I think the needed rudder/aileron timing depends on the ship you're
flying. Ships with pronounced adverse yaw probably need a bit more
"lead" with the rudder. Our club L-23 is like that. Every time I get
in that ship, it takes a little while to get the timing down (I don't
fly it often). With the not-so-good yaw stability and strong adverse
yaw tendency, it's quite different than my LS1f. The LS likes
"simultaneous" control input. It exhibits very little adverse yaw. I
don't have to "lead" at all with it.

I know I wouldn't want to lead too harshly entering my turn to final.
Heaven forbid if you were too slow. I'd much rather enter the turn to
final with a slight slip due to being a tad late on the rudder than
the alternative (with the obvious consequences).


Dave

The rudder should only be used to combat the effects of adverse yaw when
the ailerons are applied to make the glider roll and turn. For most types
of glider the stick and the rudder should be applied at the same time, but
when the required angle of bank is reached the stick should be centralised
just before most of the rudder is taken off. This however rather depends
on the type of glider being flown; for some very big span gliders and
vintage types it can pay to lead just slightly with the rudder, but always
remember that the ailerons are the primary roll controls. I get enough
students who put gliders into a turn with a big bootful of rudder without
using the stick at all, and then think that because the glider is now
turning, due to the secondary effect of yaw, they must have used the
ailerons. This is of course a good receipe for spinning in!

Derek Copeland
(UK Instructor)


At 16:53 21 July 2008, sisu1a wrote:
Hi All,

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. On his 1-5 list of making a turn in a glider, #1 is
rudder (as it's own separate input). While this may be aerodynamically
acceptable practice for a 2-33, it seems a recipie for disaster in
other ships to begin a turn by intentionally skidding. Since in a
pinch, one has a tendency to revert to instincts that were first
learned/practiced (right OR wrong), I see this as a setup for possible
future problems.
Since I have issues with this, I want to gather some other opinions
(particularly those of other CFI's) to help present a case to
possibly get this corrected. He holds little value of MYopinion, so I
was hoping to get some 'name brand' opinions to help my case. And if I
am just putting to much into this, I would rather hear it from this
group.

-Paul

On Jul 21, 12:53*pm, sisu1a wrote:
Hi All,

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. On his 1-5 list of making a turn in a glider, #1 is
rudder (as it's own separate input). While this may be aerodynamically
acceptable practice for a 2-33, it seems a recipie for disaster in
other ships to begin a turn by intentionally skidding. Since in a
pinch, one has a tendency to revert to instincts that were first
learned/practiced (right OR wrong), I see this as a setup for possible
future problems.
Since I have issues with this, I want to gather some other opinions
(particularly those of *other CFI's) to help present a case to
possibly get this corrected. He holds little value of MYopinion, so I
was hoping to get some 'name brand' opinions to help my case. And if I
am just putting to much into this, I would rather hear it from this
group.

-Paul

When introducing yaw control, I teach "lead with the rudder" slightly.
This is done because
most people(almost all) are better with their hand than their feet.
This is done while pointing out that yaw and roll should start
together to create an effective turn entry. This is done as timing
only and is NOT allowed to create the impression that the rudder turns
the glider. Within a very few flights this timing has been learned and
"lead with the rudder" does not come up again unless the student has
coordination trouble.
Skidding truns are not tolerated.
I also teach "lead with the stick" on the exit for the same reason.
I also teach "lead with the rudder" on turn stall and incipient spin
recoveries.
Let the flames begin.
UH

On Jul 21, 5:10 pm, wrote:
On Jul 21, 12:53 pm, sisu1a wrote:



Hi All,

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. On his 1-5 list of making a turn in a glider, #1 is
rudder (as it's own separate input). While this may be aerodynamically
acceptable practice for a 2-33, it seems a recipie for disaster in
other ships to begin a turn by intentionally skidding. Since in a
pinch, one has a tendency to revert to instincts that were first
learned/practiced (right OR wrong), I see this as a setup for possible
future problems.
Since I have issues with this, I want to gather some other opinions
(particularly those of other CFI's) to help present a case to
possibly get this corrected. He holds little value of MYopinion, so I
was hoping to get some 'name brand' opinions to help my case. And if I
am just putting to much into this, I would rather hear it from this
group.

-Paul

When introducing yaw control, I teach "lead with the rudder" slightly.
This is done because
most people(almost all) are better with their hand than their feet.
This is done while pointing out that yaw and roll should start
together to create an effective turn entry. This is done as timing
only and is NOT allowed to create the impression that the rudder turns
the glider. Within a very few flights this timing has been learned and
"lead with the rudder" does not come up again unless the student has
coordination trouble.
Skidding truns are not tolerated.
I also teach "lead with the stick" on the exit for the same reason.
I also teach "lead with the rudder" on turn stall and incipient spin
recoveries.
Let the flames begin.
UH

That's all pretty sensible and defensible compared to what was
described by the OP. No flames from me.