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#11
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Frontline documentary on the problems with regionals
Kurt Ullman writes:
So, if they care, they would find out who is running the flight and stay away. If they knew that there are substantial safety differences--but they don't. Most of the websites I have looked around on tell you at least the aircraft and mostly the carrier if it is other than the airline itself. If anyone is interested all they really have to do is stay on equipment from Boeing or Airbus and they should be with the "real" airlines. They don't try to look it up because they don't realize that there's a difference worth checking into. I agree that staying with Boeing or Airbus aircraft is usually pretty safe. And yes, I have canceled flights myself after discovering that they would be flown on regional turboprops, although it wasn't just or primarily because of doubts about pilot competence. That Dateline, USA Today, the NYT, the AP and a multitude of other sources point out from time to time. They talk about accidents, but not safety. An accident is the result of an accumulation of many individual errors. Often these errors were made for a very long time individually until they finally combined in an unhappy way. The documentary even points this out. Because of this, you can have two carriers that are vastly different in their safety levels without any difference in accidents (until the above happens). One might have very generous safety margins (and will thus avoid accidents), while the other might have very thin margins (and will thus have an accident sooner or later). You don't really know until the accidents occur; the best you can do is infer from what you do know. Deep discounts on tickets are one sign that there may be shortcuts taken on safety. |
#12
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Frontline documentary on the problems with regionals
FlyCherokee writes:
The accident itself is still a mystery to me. I only saw the first half of the show, but that part made it look like the crew made some very fundamental errors; not maintaining airspeed, and a very strange response to the stall. Has there been any other analysis (made public) that explains the captain pulling back on the stick during the stall? During the last hearing held by the NTSB, that agency made it clear that pilot incompetence and lack of experience were the probable causes of the accident. The pilots made multiple serious mistakes that accumulated until a crash occurred. They failed to maintain a sterile cockpit, they reacted improperly to the problems they experienced again and again, etc. A competent flight deck crew would have easily avoided the crash, and could have dealt with the problems successfully even if they were somehow allowed to occur. Overall the NTSB was very hard on the pilots. The aircraft was fine, and weather does not appear to have been a factor. If you watch the NTSB animation you can see many mistakes being made, even if you're not familiar with the specific aircraft in question. |
#13
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Frontline documentary on the problems with regionals
In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote: Kurt Ullman writes: So, if they care, they would find out who is running the flight and stay away. If they knew that there are substantial safety differences--but they don't. If they cared they would know and find out. They don't try to look it up because they don't realize that there's a difference worth checking into. Then they aren't really interested and certainly not paying attention. That Dateline, USA Today, the NYT, the AP and a multitude of other sources point out from time to time. They talk about accidents, but not safety. The last Dateline (or maybe the one on CBS, I get them confused) talked about lousy safety records, poor pilot training and requirements, long commutes, etc. Same with the last CNN chat about regional airlines and the last AP article I saw. Much umbrage and angst from the Fourth Estate recently. -- I get off on '57 Chevys I get off on screamin' guitars --Eric Clapton |
#14
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Frontline documentary on the problems with regionals
On Feb 13, 9:33*pm, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article , *Mxsmanic wrote: Kurt Ullman writes: So, if they care, they would find out who is running the flight and stay away. If they knew that there are substantial safety differences--but they don't. * If they cared they would know and find out. They don't try to look it up because they don't realize that there's a difference worth checking into. * * Then they aren't really interested and certainly not paying attention. That Dateline, USA Today, the NYT, the AP and a multitude of other sources point out from time to time. They talk about accidents, but not safety. * *The last Dateline (or maybe the one on CBS, I get them confused) talked about lousy safety records, poor pilot training and requirements, long commutes, etc. Same with the last CNN chat about regional airlines and the last AP article I saw. Much umbrage and angst from the Fourth Estate recently. -- I get off on '57 Chevys I get off on screamin' guitars * * * --Eric Clapton Recently (1-- 3 years ago) a passenger airliner crashed allegedly from later determined PILOTS ERRORS near Buffalo: The pilot's file shows he was apparently unqualified if not inexperienced The co-pilot's file apparently ditto Plus they both were reportedly fatigued The co-pilot pay for the commuter gigs is something like $26 thousand a year I do not fly unless my dear wife pushes, and the above is certainly plenty of reasons enough A few months ago we flew in a small passenger commuter plane RT Atlanta-Gulfport Miss and do acknowledge the trips went smoothly, except those Jackson-Hartsfield end of concourse concrete steps, no other complaint I am slightly surprised the Buffalo commuter airline has an insurance underwriter, because I would expect them to rationally beg off of doing business with such an alleged certified airline |
#15
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Frontline documentary on the problems with regionals
On Feb 13, 8:23*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
tim.... writes: Why should this require them to reduce ticket prices? Because passengers pay in part for safety, and safety is greatly reduced when a regional airline operates the flight. *Passengers pay for their tickets in the expectation that they will enjoy the superlative safety record of a major airline, when in fact they will be subjected to an order of magnitude greater risk with a regional. I think this has been proven false over and over. Even the most "dangerous" airlines in the US are enormously safe. There is nothing to suggest that travelers pay any extra for the airlines with a better record. Top priorities for travelers are... 1) Price 2) Price 3) Price 4) On time 5) Personal experience (have they ****ed me off in the past)? 6) Goodies (frequent flyer miles, etc) 7) Connections These priorities have been proven over and over. -Robert |
#16
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Frontline documentary on the problems with regionals
On Feb 13, 3:43*pm, FlyCherokee wrote:
On Feb 13, 8:19*am, Mxsmanic wrote: The accident itself is still a mystery to me. I only saw the first half of the show, but that part made it look like the crew made some very fundamental errors; not maintaining airspeed, and a very strange response to the stall. *Has there been any other analysis (made public) that explains the captain pulling back on the stick during the stall? As I was watching the special and they described how the captain reacted to the stall warning I couldn't help wonder if he attended the same tailplane icing course I did. His reaction was text book correct for a tailplane stall in icing conditions (pull back, not push forward). He may have believed his problem was ice, not an typical stall scenario. -Robert |
#17
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Frontline documentary on the problems with regionals
"Robert M. Gary" wrote:
FlyCherokee wrote: The accident itself is still a mystery to me. I only saw the first half of the show, but that part made it look like the crew made some very fundamental errors; not maintaining airspeed, and a very strange response to the stall. *Has there been any other analysis (made public) that explains the captain pulling back on the stick during the stall? As I was watching the special and they described how the captain reacted to the stall warning I couldn't help wonder if he attended the same tailplane icing course I did. His reaction was text book correct for a tailplane stall in icing conditions (pull back, not push forward). He may have believed his problem was ice, not an typical stall scenario. In the NTSB presentations at the public hearing, they noted that Colgan Air presented a video on tailplane icing in their training courses. The NTSB went on to note that the Dash 8 is not susceptible to tailplane stalls in icing, nor are any other current Part 121 aircraft. The thirteenth conclusion in their summary was: 13 - It is unlikely that the captain was deliberately attempting to perform a tailplane stall recovery. So for whatever reason, they don't share your view on the subject. http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2010/AAR1001.htm |
#18
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Frontline documentary on the problems with regionals
On Feb 17, 5:02*pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
As I was watching the special and they described how the captain reacted to the stall warning I couldn't help wonder if he attended the same tailplane icing course I did. His reaction was text book correct for a tailplane stall in icing conditions (pull back, not push forward). He may have believed his problem was ice, not an typical stall scenario. -Robert Now that's very interesting, I hadn't heard that before. If your suspicion is true, it would be a much more reasonable explanation for his behavior than gross incompetence. John |
#19
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Frontline documentary on the problems with regionals
FlyCherokee wrote:
On Feb 17, 5:02*pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote: As I was watching the special and they described how the captain reacted to the stall warning I couldn't help wonder if he attended the same tailplane icing course I did. His reaction was text book correct for a tailplane stall in icing conditions (pull back, not push forward). He may have believed his problem was ice, not an typical stall scenario. -Robert Now that's very interesting, I hadn't heard that before. If your suspicion is true, it would be a much more reasonable explanation for his behavior than gross incompetence. The NTSB had a long enough list of things that were done wrong to seriously question both pilots' competence. Just read the presentations on crew response and pilot professionalism on the following NTSB web page: http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2010/Clar...sentations.htm They are short slide presentations, but are full of things that simply weren't done properly. |
#20
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Frontline documentary on the problems with regionals
Robert M. Gary writes:
As I was watching the special and they described how the captain reacted to the stall warning I couldn't help wonder if he attended the same tailplane icing course I did. His reaction was text book correct for a tailplane stall in icing conditions (pull back, not push forward). He may have believed his problem was ice, not an typical stall scenario. The evidence for his overall incompetence was strong enough that it is unlikely he'd have specific competence in dealing with tailplane icing. It's more likely that he was responding instinctively--and incorrectly--to the circumstances. Tailplane icing was indeed considered as a possibility initially, before the long list of errors made by the pilots became fully apparent. |
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