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#31
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What First Glider to own?
On Dec 3, 3:15 pm, "Tim Mara" wrote:
How Dare you! ??! Libelle is "UGLY"???? and this coming for a guy with an LS1C????? Glass houses! Tim ) "rlovinggood" wrote in message ... I would also recommend a Libelle: Nearly everyone holds Libelles as beautiful and I couldn't agree more. I'll have to disagree, to some extent, with WB. Beautiful, yes. But only in a rare time when seen from a higher vantage point and having to twist neck to look back and down. Really ugly when seen from below and well out in front of my typical vantage point. :-) And yes, the low canopy really improves the look of this classic glider. I'll second what others have said: Make sure you get a good trailer with all the bits in working order. Not much sucks more than a knuckle-busting trailer. Ray Lovinggood Carrboro, North Carolina, USA LS1-d __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5672 (20101203) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5672 (20101203) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com as far as im concerned the libelle is beauty on wings. i gaggled with a very nice 201 once while i was flying my cherokee ii. it took everything i had not to let him outclimb me. i was impressed. i need to sit in one to make sure that ill fit |
#32
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What First Glider to own?
Sit in one but try not to fly one.........or the Cherokee will lose it's
luster! ) Biggest fallacy about Libelle is the small cockpit....yes it is not bulbous but it is actually very comfortable even for relatively larger pilots...I fit nicely at 190 lbs and 5'10"+ and know others who are well +++6 foot that actually fit rather well.but you have to fit it and fly it like a Libelle.don't try to sit up but rather slide in and get your shoulders below the canopy frame and lip.most try it on and complain it's too narrow at the canopy and that's simply because they are not sitting in it the way Hanle (genius!) designed it.alreay back in the earliest days of the Libelle Hanle was thinking about cockpit strength and crash protection....and even if the cockpit were tight..the flight in a Libelle is worth the efforts!..600 buyers couldn't have been all wrong! tim Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com "Tony" wrote in message ... On Dec 3, 3:15 pm, "Tim Mara" wrote: How Dare you! ??! Libelle is "UGLY"???? and this coming for a guy with an LS1C????? Glass houses! Tim ) "rlovinggood" wrote in message ... I would also recommend a Libelle: Nearly everyone holds Libelles as beautiful and I couldn't agree more. I'll have to disagree, to some extent, with WB. Beautiful, yes. But only in a rare time when seen from a higher vantage point and having to twist neck to look back and down. Really ugly when seen from below and well out in front of my typical vantage point. :-) And yes, the low canopy really improves the look of this classic glider. I'll second what others have said: Make sure you get a good trailer with all the bits in working order. Not much sucks more than a knuckle-busting trailer. Ray Lovinggood Carrboro, North Carolina, USA LS1-d __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5672 (20101203) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5672 (20101203) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com as far as im concerned the libelle is beauty on wings. i gaggled with a very nice 201 once while i was flying my cherokee ii. it took everything i had not to let him outclimb me. i was impressed. i need to sit in one to make sure that ill fit __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5672 (20101203) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5672 (20101203) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com |
#33
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What First Glider to own?
OK, just to stoke some controversy, I'll add a contrary opinion:
There are two questions: What first glider to own, and what cheap glider to own. These are often confused. Unlike in many other sports the "latest and greatest" does not take any more skill or finesse than older gliders. If you have the money, there is no reason at all not to make your local dealer immensely happy by ordering a modern glider, or buying one of the many excellent used ones for sale. If you are qualified to fly a Libelle, Cirrus, or PIK, you're qualified to fly a 27-28-29, or D2/V2. You get easier handling and a considerable improvement in safety. All the new gliders have better balanced controls. Winglets make a big difference in thermals. Spin prone tips, all flying tails, small slippery airbrakes and all that got sorted out in the 80s. The "safety cockpit" concept really didn't begin until the late 80s and early 90s. You also get a trailer that is much much better than earlier models. Landing my ASW27 is much easier than landing a libelle. (Of course new pilots should stay away from open class, tricky gliders, and motors. Power pilots should absolutely not get a glider with a motor in it -- they always seem to want that.) Older gliders are lovely. Old cars are lovely. But old anything means lots more care and maintenance. Nobody said the three most important things to look at in an older glider: Gelcoat, Gelcoat, Gelcoat. It's only a matter of time before that $15,000 + bill comes due. Plus rust on the fittings, ADs, bags that leak, fittings that break, bearings that wear out, manufacturers who don't exist/don't stock older parts, and so on and so forth. It's a tradeoff -- save money initially, but you will invest more time. If you don't know how to do it yourself, you'll invest lots more repair money down the road too. If that's for you, good. If you have the money and would rather spend time flying, do it. I have to disagree pretty hard with the advice here that KA6s and the like are good gliders for new pilots to consider. KA6s are beautiful, fragile, wooden antiques. They need lots of expert tender loving care. It's like owning and driving a Ford Model A. Vintage and antique flying are wonderful hobbies -- but not for a new pilot with limited time and expertise at glider maintenance, whose main interest is in flying. Plus, look hard at the bottom of a KA6. It looks like a gorgeously made wooden boat from the 1950s. Now think of your butt down there, crashing in to something. Splinters are not a safety cockpit. When you go for gliders this old, you're making a big tradeoff in money for safety. Now, that's probably ok if you want to float around the airport and enjoy your beautiful antique. Missing seatbelts are ok for tooling around in your Ford Model A on a sunday afternoon. But if you want to push the cross country or contest envelope, it's a much more important consideration. This post started with "under 20k". But where did that money limit come from? Maybe that $20k limit isn't so hard and fast after all? I bet it came from a perception that the cost/value tradeoff peaks at $20k. I hope the above makes you look a little deeper. Here's how to explain it to the spouse. Don't look at the list price -- look at the annual cost. Gliders don't depreciate. If you buy a glider for $20k, you'll sell it for $20k a few years from now. So a $20k glider is really costing you the interest you'd be earning each year. That's maybe 2 percent per year right now, so a $20k glider only costs you $400 per year! Even if you have to borrow, home equity loans are about 5% right now, so that $20k glider only costs $1000 per year. The insurance and tows are going to cost more than that! Maybe a $40k glider, meaning $800 lost interest or $2000/ year interest cost, isn't that "expensive" after all. And with a partner (an excellent idea for a first purchase) now we can talk about an $80k glider! Owning a glider is, in the end, pretty cheap. Try to play golf or go skiing on $2000 per year! (No, I'm not on the dealer payroll!) It is also a bad idea to buy a glider that you know you'll outgrow in a few years. There's a lot of pain in the butt with buying and selling gliders, setting up instruments, paying sales taxes, and so on. Spend a bit more now, and be sure you'll be happy with it for at least 5 years. The difference in performance of the new gliders is pretty big. That doesn't just mean you go faster, it means you stay up and go places others can't. That "'cheap" glider will end up costing a lot if you dump it in a year or two because you're tired of watching your buddies go places you can't. John Cochrane |
#34
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What First Glider to own?
this is all well for those well to do....but.....flying a brand new super
ship doesn't always mean that the flying is any more fun or rewarding than flying a "NICE" maybe older glider....and the cost of ownership does in fact have both sides of the coin.the older glider "might" need some restoration and maintenance...but a Nice one may also not need any big investments added to it either..a cheap and neglected glider is just that..but a nice older ship can provide lots of enjoyment..I new or newer fancy ship has added costs as well....the insurance of a 100K glider alone can cost in a just a year or two what you might possible pay for a decent older glider...then there's the taxes (if you live in a place where you have to contribute the great society..maybe your super ship deserves a super hangar or super storage facility that the older ship doesn't quite live up to... the fun factor doesn't always increase with the cost...I've owned a bunch of glides and airplanes.....I own 3 now....one is a brand new 304S.fantastic super ship.....but fun factors and satisfaction with a good day at the airport are not tied together... biggest thing is buy a glider you can afford and just go fly for fun......after all...if flying gliders isn't for fun then what is it ? best regards Tim Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com "John Cochrane" wrote in message ... OK, just to stoke some controversy, I'll add a contrary opinion: There are two questions: What first glider to own, and what cheap glider to own. These are often confused. Unlike in many other sports the "latest and greatest" does not take any more skill or finesse than older gliders. If you have the money, there is no reason at all not to make your local dealer immensely happy by ordering a modern glider, or buying one of the many excellent used ones for sale. If you are qualified to fly a Libelle, Cirrus, or PIK, you're qualified to fly a 27-28-29, or D2/V2. You get easier handling and a considerable improvement in safety. All the new gliders have better balanced controls. Winglets make a big difference in thermals. Spin prone tips, all flying tails, small slippery airbrakes and all that got sorted out in the 80s. The "safety cockpit" concept really didn't begin until the late 80s and early 90s. You also get a trailer that is much much better than earlier models. Landing my ASW27 is much easier than landing a libelle. (Of course new pilots should stay away from open class, tricky gliders, and motors. Power pilots should absolutely not get a glider with a motor in it -- they always seem to want that.) Older gliders are lovely. Old cars are lovely. But old anything means lots more care and maintenance. Nobody said the three most important things to look at in an older glider: Gelcoat, Gelcoat, Gelcoat. It's only a matter of time before that $15,000 + bill comes due. Plus rust on the fittings, ADs, bags that leak, fittings that break, bearings that wear out, manufacturers who don't exist/don't stock older parts, and so on and so forth. It's a tradeoff -- save money initially, but you will invest more time. If you don't know how to do it yourself, you'll invest lots more repair money down the road too. If that's for you, good. If you have the money and would rather spend time flying, do it. I have to disagree pretty hard with the advice here that KA6s and the like are good gliders for new pilots to consider. KA6s are beautiful, fragile, wooden antiques. They need lots of expert tender loving care. It's like owning and driving a Ford Model A. Vintage and antique flying are wonderful hobbies -- but not for a new pilot with limited time and expertise at glider maintenance, whose main interest is in flying. Plus, look hard at the bottom of a KA6. It looks like a gorgeously made wooden boat from the 1950s. Now think of your butt down there, crashing in to something. Splinters are not a safety cockpit. When you go for gliders this old, you're making a big tradeoff in money for safety. Now, that's probably ok if you want to float around the airport and enjoy your beautiful antique. Missing seatbelts are ok for tooling around in your Ford Model A on a sunday afternoon. But if you want to push the cross country or contest envelope, it's a much more important consideration. This post started with "under 20k". But where did that money limit come from? Maybe that $20k limit isn't so hard and fast after all? I bet it came from a perception that the cost/value tradeoff peaks at $20k. I hope the above makes you look a little deeper. Here's how to explain it to the spouse. Don't look at the list price -- look at the annual cost. Gliders don't depreciate. If you buy a glider for $20k, you'll sell it for $20k a few years from now. So a $20k glider is really costing you the interest you'd be earning each year. That's maybe 2 percent per year right now, so a $20k glider only costs you $400 per year! Even if you have to borrow, home equity loans are about 5% right now, so that $20k glider only costs $1000 per year. The insurance and tows are going to cost more than that! Maybe a $40k glider, meaning $800 lost interest or $2000/ year interest cost, isn't that "expensive" after all. And with a partner (an excellent idea for a first purchase) now we can talk about an $80k glider! Owning a glider is, in the end, pretty cheap. Try to play golf or go skiing on $2000 per year! (No, I'm not on the dealer payroll!) It is also a bad idea to buy a glider that you know you'll outgrow in a few years. There's a lot of pain in the butt with buying and selling gliders, setting up instruments, paying sales taxes, and so on. Spend a bit more now, and be sure you'll be happy with it for at least 5 years. The difference in performance of the new gliders is pretty big. That doesn't just mean you go faster, it means you stay up and go places others can't. That "'cheap" glider will end up costing a lot if you dump it in a year or two because you're tired of watching your buddies go places you can't. John Cochrane __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5672 (20101203) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5672 (20101203) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com |
#35
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What First Glider to own?
For information of the Schreder HP/RS series, check out
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder Wayne HP-14 "6F" http://tinyurl.com/N990-6F "jb92563" wrote in message ... .... Snip.... The Schreder HP Experiementals are a great buy. I bought my 40+ year old HP-11 for $6,000 with a good trailer. Its had 9 owners and they have completed Diamonds etc in them. Its all metal and I leave it outside rigged in the blistering CA sun and occasional rain, year round and its virtually maintenance free. L/ D ~37:1 Its durable and learning Flaps is easy and less scray than you have heard and gives you capabilities to exceed your best expectations, with flap assisted slow thermalling and reflex flaps for top end speed. and full flaps to get in to incredibly small postage stamp sized fields. I now prefer flaps to spoilers alone and I think most people would too if they gave it a try. Its also a rugged and durable design and will out survive a fiberglass model with reduced maintenance required. You should check out the HP-11, HP-14, HP-18 and RS-15 in the Schreder line at soaridaho. com, mostly under $15K To fly one is to become a believer in late 60's high performance contest proven technology. Plus you can afford all those extra tows and road trips with the money you save. Save for the modern glass while you have fun in the Schreders and pass along your HP when you are ready to move up....they last forever. Ray |
#36
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What First Glider to own?
Gelcoat, Gelcoat, Gelcoat. It's
only a matter of time before that $15,000 + bill comes due. - And how many relatively new 27s or LS-8s required new gel coat or wing re-profiling? Some of them as new as 2 years old... Quite of few. And just like with old gliders you wont see the return when selling. |
#37
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What First Glider to own?
On 12/3/2010 10:28 AM, jb92563 wrote:
There are a few Experimental Gliders with great performance bang for the buck and are great performers. Snip... The Schreder HP Experimentals are a great buy. I bought my 40+ year old HP-11 for $6,000 with a good trailer. It's had 9 owners and they have completed Diamonds etc in them. Its all metal and I leave it outside rigged in the blistering CA sun and occasional rain, year round and its virtually maintenance free. L/ D ~37:1 Its durable and learning Flaps is easy and less scary than you have heard and gives you capabilities to exceed your best expectations, with flap assisted slow thermalling and reflex flaps for top end speed. and full flaps to get in to incredibly small postage stamp sized fields. I now prefer flaps to spoilers alone and I think most people would too if they gave it a try. "I'll second the above." Usta own/fly an HP-14, transitioned into 'flapped high performance' ships from a 1-26 w. ~125 total PIC hours w/o problems (the HP being the 2nd of 3 flaps-only 'higher performance types' ever self-owned). Regardless of what you eventually decide, FWIW, just about *all* of the advice you've received in this thread has merit, IMHO. Yet another fascinating aspect of this wonderful sporting activity! Have fun - searching and soaring! Regards, Bob W. |
#38
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What First Glider to own?
Dont forget the running costs. Insurance is usually related to hull value.
If you go glass remember not all gell coats last the same. In our club we have several Discus's where the gell coat needed replacing after about 15yrs. However out Grob 102 mkIIIs are still fine after about 30yrs. Other gliders in your bracket include DG100/200, ASw19, std cirrus, Mosquito. Dont like the corrosion problems with aluminum glider. They are usually hidden. Nigel |
#39
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What First Glider to own?
On Dec 4, 8:32*am, Nigel Pocock wrote:
Dont forget the running costs. Insurance is usually related to hull value.. If you go glass remember not all gell coats last the same. In our club we have several Discus's where the gell coat needed replacing after about 15yrs. However out Grob 102 mkIIIs are still fine after about 30yrs. Other gliders in your bracket include DG100/200, ASw19, std cirrus, Mosquito. Dont like the corrosion problems with aluminum glider. They are usually hidden. Nigel Insurance doesn't rise with hull value as much as you'd think however. Liability is the same for everyone. Most damage doesn't total the glider. A canopy is $5k on any glider. Insurance companies know this and charge accordingly. Thus, $20k gliders cost about $1200 to insure, while $100k gliders still cost less than $2000 to insure. Hence my point that expensive gliders aren't as expensive as you think. The fixed costs of owning and operating any glider -- liability insurance, tows, annual, maintenance, club membership, contest fees, gas, hotels, beer and burritos -- add up to several thousand dollars per year. Even using 5% interest, so a $20k glider is $1000 per year, and a $60k glider is $3000 per year, this capital cost has a smaller effect than you'd think on the overall cost of soaring. Or so I try to persuade my wife... John Cochrane |
#40
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What First Glider to own?
At 23:15 03 December 2010, John Cochrane wrote:
Maybe a $40k glider, meaning $800 lost interest or $2000/ year interest cost, isn't that "expensive" after all. And with a partner (an excellent idea for a first purchase) now we can talk about an $80k glider! Owning a glider is, in the end, pretty cheap. You're overlooking insurance costs, no? And the more expensive glider does cost more when the insurance premium comes due. Jim Beckman |
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