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Tips on Getting Your Instrument Rating Sooner and at Lower Cost



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 6th 04, 05:17 PM
Fred
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tips on Getting Your Instrument Rating Sooner and at Lower Cost

Have you ever carefully studied what the regulations actually REQUIRE
regarding the
various experience requirements for an instrument rating?

The XC requirement in particular, is one that oftentimes unnecessarily adds
to the cost
of an instrument rating and delays getting it.

According to the FAA, a pilot who already has a private pilot certificate
and is
RATED in the airplane, can log PIC time, even while receiving dual
instruction.

This means that an instrument training XC trip, which is NOT on an
instrument flight plan (you don't have an instrument rating yet so you can't
file IFR as PIC) but is under the hood with an instructor as safety pilot,
can be logged as PIC XC.......so you can make the same time do double duty.

Much instrument training is done this way, with the instructor acting as
ATC.
Most of your instrument training will be hood time. Do it on a XC using
instrument
navigation procedures and you can save as much as 20-30 hours or more of the
additional cost of having to do it over twice. (The rules do not say SOLO
XC
the rules say PIC XC )

This means that most of your instrument time training can also be XC PIC IF
you
arrange your flights carefully in regard to what the regulations require and
make
your training part of an XC trip.

(As a side note, this is a good way to get your training because you get to
plan all aspects of the flight from the standpoint of FLYING an instrument
trip. Take-off, climb, enroute, approach and landing are all included.
Just do them to instrument standards under the hood and for all practical
purposes you are conducting an instrument flight.....and getting
double duty out of your flight dollar.).

There are a number of other rules that require certain amounts of flight
time
under varying conditions that usually are done one at a time, rather than
meeting several requirements on one flight.

If you look at your logbook, and study the regulations, you will see many
instances
of this.

If you are just getting started flying, this might be a good time to
CAREFULLY
STUDY the rules and ask your flight instructor about how to combine as many
requirements on a flight as possible to make your learning experience more
cost effective.

If you are like most pilots, flying is expensive. Getting the most for
your dolllar
is important. KNOWING what the regulations REALLY require can save
you a lot of money and get you on your way faster, without shortchanging
your
knowledge.

Being organized and having knowledge of what the rules really say can save
you a lot of money.

Remember. If you have questions about the way the regulations are
interpreted
you can call your local FAA Flight Standards District Office and ask an
Inspector.

They are there to help you.

P.S. You might like to read
HOW TO TRAIN YOUR FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR
http://webplus.locators.estates.co.uk/hint6.html#train




Ads
  #2  
Old October 6th 04, 05:51 PM
C Kingsbury
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In my experience the #1 time-delay comes from getting the written test done.
If/when I decide to go for my commercial I'm not going to even start taking
lessons until after I've done the written. Doing the same with my private &
instrument would have saved me 3 calendar months on each. And in general,
the fewer calendar months you spend training, the fewer hours you spend in
the airplane fixing things you forgot from previous lessons.

-cwk.

"Fred" wrote in message
ink.net...
Have you ever carefully studied what the regulations actually REQUIRE
regarding the
various experience requirements for an instrument rating?




  #3  
Old October 6th 04, 06:03 PM
gatt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"C Kingsbury" wrote in message
ink.net...
In my experience the #1 time-delay comes from getting the written test

done.
If/when I decide to go for my commercial I'm not going to even start

taking
lessons until after I've done the written. Doing the same with my private

&
instrument would have saved me 3 calendar months on each. And in general,
the fewer calendar months you spend training, the fewer hours you spend in
the airplane fixing things you forgot from previous lessons.


INDEED!

-c


  #4  
Old October 6th 04, 06:04 PM
Gary Drescher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Fred" wrote in message
ink.net...
This means that an instrument training XC trip, which is NOT on an
instrument flight plan (you don't have an instrument rating yet so you
can't
file IFR as PIC) but is under the hood with an instructor as safety pilot,
can be logged as PIC XC.......so you can make the same time do double
duty.


A private pilot can log PIC XC time for an instrument training XC trip even
if the flight is IFR (or even in IMC). FAR 61.51e1i requires only that the
pilot be rated for the aircraft in order to log PIC time as
sole-manipulator. There is no requirement that the pilot be rated for the
conditions of flight, or that the pilot actually be PIC.

--Gary


  #5  
Old October 6th 04, 06:28 PM
Teacherjh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


This means that an instrument training XC trip, which is NOT on an
instrument flight plan (you don't have an instrument rating yet so you can't
file IFR as PIC) but is under the hood with an instructor as safety pilot,
can be logged as PIC XC.......so you can make the same time do double duty.


Well, sort of. You need to make this arrangement beforehand, because LOGGING
PIC time and BEING PIC are two different animals, kind of like dolphin (the
kind you eat) and dolphin (as in Flipper) are two different animals.

You can =log= PIC time as a non-instrument-rated private pilot, even under an
IFR flight plan that your instructor files, even though the instructor must
=be= PIC(*). However, you can =not= use this time as the time required under
61.65(d)(1). Though it's in your logbook as PIC (sole manipulator, or "Hands On
Time"), you were not PIC (Top Dog) on that flight. I know you didn't claim
this to be true; I state it for completeness.

You can also log PIC time if you are flying under VFR, under the hood, with the
instructor also acting as safety pilot, irrespective of who =is= PIC. This is
the case I believe you were referring to, and yes, if you and your instructor
agree that =you= (the student) are to be Top Dog on that flight, then the time
counts towards the time required under 61.65(d)(1). It might be the case that
you need to do this (for example, if the instructor's medical has lapsed, I
believe she can still give you required instruction, she just can't be Top Dog,
though this would require another current pilot in the back to act as safety
pilot, which is a required crewmember under the circumstances, which brings us
back to the pathological case referred to earlier). On the other hand, it is
also possible that the (current) instructor elects to act as Top Dog (and =be=
PIC), in which case though you could log HOT time (PIC time) you could not use
it as the time required under 61.65(d)(1). It might even be necessary (for
example, if your own medical has lapsed, though I think that in that case you
might not be able to log the time at all; 61.23 does not list "receiving flight
instruction" as an exception)

So, yes, you can make the time do double duty, but you need to read the regs
carefully. Remember, HOT time doesn't make you Top Dog, and being Top Dog
doesn't make you HOT.

Jose
==
(*) OK, there are pathological cases where a third person sitting in the back
could BE PIC, for now let's not go there.. oh, never mind, we already did.

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)
  #6  
Old October 6th 04, 10:29 PM
Richard Hertz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Fred" wrote in message
ink.net...
Have you ever carefully studied what the regulations actually REQUIRE
regarding the
various experience requirements for an instrument rating?

The XC requirement in particular, is one that oftentimes unnecessarily

adds
to the cost
of an instrument rating and delays getting it.

According to the FAA, a pilot who already has a private pilot certificate
and is
RATED in the airplane, can log PIC time, even while receiving dual
instruction.

This means that an instrument training XC trip, which is NOT on an
instrument flight plan (you don't have an instrument rating yet so you

can't
file IFR as PIC) but is under the hood with an instructor as safety pilot,
can be logged as PIC XC.......so you can make the same time do double

duty.

Much instrument training is done this way, with the instructor acting as
ATC.
Most of your instrument training will be hood time. Do it on a XC using
instrument
navigation procedures and you can save as much as 20-30 hours or more of

the
additional cost of having to do it over twice. (The rules do not say

SOLO
XC
the rules say PIC XC )




How do you come up with 20 to 30 hours?

Doing cross countries is no place to start learning IFR procedures. You
should spend time in a sim beforehand, then make your way to a plane. Your
proposal I think is something that most people are aware of. Thanks for the
"help."




This means that most of your instrument time training can also be XC PIC

IF
you
arrange your flights carefully in regard to what the regulations require

and
make
your training part of an XC trip.

(As a side note, this is a good way to get your training because you get

to
plan all aspects of the flight from the standpoint of FLYING an instrument
trip. Take-off, climb, enroute, approach and landing are all included.
Just do them to instrument standards under the hood and for all practical
purposes you are conducting an instrument flight.....and getting
double duty out of your flight dollar.).

There are a number of other rules that require certain amounts of flight
time
under varying conditions that usually are done one at a time, rather than
meeting several requirements on one flight.

If you look at your logbook, and study the regulations, you will see many
instances
of this.

If you are just getting started flying, this might be a good time to
CAREFULLY
STUDY the rules and ask your flight instructor about how to combine as

many
requirements on a flight as possible to make your learning experience more
cost effective.

If you are like most pilots, flying is expensive. Getting the most for
your dolllar
is important. KNOWING what the regulations REALLY require can save
you a lot of money and get you on your way faster, without shortchanging
your
knowledge.

Being organized and having knowledge of what the rules really say can save
you a lot of money.

Remember. If you have questions about the way the regulations are
interpreted
you can call your local FAA Flight Standards District Office and ask an
Inspector.

They are there to help you.

P.S. You might like to read
HOW TO TRAIN YOUR FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR
http://webplus.locators.estates.co.uk/hint6.html#train






  #7  
Old October 7th 04, 02:34 AM
Fred
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Richard Hertz" no [email protected] one.com wrote in message
et...

"Fred" wrote in message
ink.net...
Have you ever carefully studied what the regulations actually REQUIRE
regarding the
various experience requirements for an instrument rating?

The XC requirement in particular, is one that oftentimes unnecessarily

adds
to the cost
of an instrument rating and delays getting it.

According to the FAA, a pilot who already has a private pilot

certificate
and is
RATED in the airplane, can log PIC time, even while receiving dual
instruction.

This means that an instrument training XC trip, which is NOT on an
instrument flight plan (you don't have an instrument rating yet so you

can't
file IFR as PIC) but is under the hood with an instructor as safety

pilot,
can be logged as PIC XC.......so you can make the same time do double

duty.

Much instrument training is done this way, with the instructor acting as
ATC.
Most of your instrument training will be hood time. Do it on a XC

using
instrument
navigation procedures and you can save as much as 20-30 hours or more of

the
additional cost of having to do it over twice. (The rules do not say

SOLO
XC
the rules say PIC XC )




How do you come up with 20 to 30 hours?


The rules require 10 hours with an instructor. The rest can be PIC with
an instructor as safety pilot. 40-10 = 30. That adds up to 40 hours.


Doing cross countries is no place to start learning IFR procedures. You
should spend time in a sim beforehand, then make your way to a plane.

Your
proposal I think is something that most people are aware of. Thanks for

the
"help."


Actually, I find a lot of pilots under the mis-impression that they have to
have
the 50 hours BEFORE they start the IFR or that the 50 hours has to be
separate
from the IFR training or in addition to it.

I would respectfully disagree that doing cross countries is no place to
start
learning IFR procedures.

I would suggest that cross countries are a very good place to start
learning them, to practice them, and to master them because this is what IFR
flying is all about, namely
using the plane for XC under acceptable weather conditions that are not VFR.

Flying IFR is not much different from flying VFR except that you are using
the gauges
instead of getting confused by looking at all the clutter on the maps and
looking
outside all the time.

IFR charts are easier to read, easier to interpret, and easier to navigate
with.

You learned how to navigate by pilotage for your private and you learned how
to
dead reckon, deal with lost procedures etc so you already know how to do
this.

The next step is to learn to control the plane more precisely and doing it
with the slight
additional workload of keeping up with your times, etas, etc is not much
more, IF you
have learned to PLAN properly in the first place.......

There is nothing wrong with practicing VFR XC when you feel like it, but if
you are interested in getting on with getting your skills up to the highest
level, as soon as possible, the sooner you learn the IFR procedures the
sooner you can use them and, within limits,
I would assert that you will be a safer pilot because of it.

An Instrument rating certainly brings your skills to a much higher precision
level
and the training makes you much more aware of weather, the limitations it
imposes,
and gives you more latitude in dealing with the problems that weather
presents
and certainly makes you a more precise pilot.

As you gain experience, hopefully your judgment gets better and better.

The reason that I like to teach IFR things on an XC is that

1. You have to plan the trip, in advance, very well. This means that you
have to
think about the trip more, BEFORE you leave the ground, so you can have a
low
stress, enjoyable flight. This is what you should be doing VFR, but the
IFR
routine enforces it more.

You have to consider the weather, terrain, winds, altitudes, etc a lot more,
which
you should on a VFR XC also.......but doing it IFR (or IFR under the hood in
training) gives you more practice, sooner, rather than later, so you learn
these
important skills earlier in the game.

That translates into thinking about setting up your frequencies ahead of
time, setting up your radios ahead of time, and setting up your COURSES
ahead of time, so mostly what you have to deal with is waiting for things to
happen. i.e. to get to an intersection and change the direction, fly your
new heading while maintaining your altitude and wait for the next heading or
altitude change.

Otherwise, all you have to do is keep the plane right side up, on heading
and on
altitude, and talk with ATC or your instructor and adhere to your
"clearance".

2. The basics of navigation remain the same, except that it is a lot easier
to navigate
with radios than it is to navigate by DR and pilotage, especially at night,
as well as,
being generally safer, because, you can get a positive fix from your radios,
whereas you
often cannot when flying VFR at every second of the flight.

When you learn this way, you reduce the overall problem to one of aircraft
systems
management and because you take things in the order that they happen and
learn to
expect them, you reduce a complex problem to something that comes in natural
stages
with a purpose.

This all reduces the problem to controlling the airplane within IFR
tolerances
+/- 100 feet and +/- 10 degrees of heading and you have almost the entire
flight
to practice this skill, so you get a lot of practice tracking the VOR,
intercepting
courses, and when you get to the other end, you get to make an approach,
which
for the most part, is just flying headings and maintaining altitude.

You need practice to get your skill level to stay within the altitude and
heading
tolerances. This is a good place to do it, because you don't have a lot of
distractions
and it has a purpose....ie.to get you to your destination.

Mastering the ability to stay ahead of the airplane means PLANNING.....which
means setting up your radios so you stay ahead of the airplane and wait for
them
to indicate you have reached a checkpoint, so you can do the next thing
required.

PLANNING is the essence of a stress free IFR flight and I have found that it
is most easily learned by doing......which is what IFR flying is all about.

When I was working on my instrument rating, I found that instructors usually
would
go out to teach a subject, such as intercepting a course, maintaining an
altitude,
flying an ADF course, or just holding heading and altitude, without having
another
purpose

Sure, I knew we were "going to practice IFR under the hood", but it didn't
have
the same purpose of actually going somewhere and it made it much more
difficult
for me to understand why each thing was important...so we didn't go through
the
PLANNING stage which is essential to building IFR skills quickly.

When I finally got to the XC stage, I had an additional burden of putting it
all together
and would continually forget to do things that needed to be done, well ahead
of time,
because in the incremental way I was taught, the crucial PLANNING OF THE
FLIGHT was neglected, because we were really not going anywhere......just
out to
the VOR across to the ILS and down for an approach.

This PLANNING is crucial when learning to fly IFR because you have to learn
to
stay ahead of the airplane. Going through the steps on an IFR XC gives
you a
lot more practice, it doesn't hit you so fast, so you have a little more
time to get
your flight stabilized, and is an overall better way to learn.

Also, if you need a break, just tell your instructor and let him fly for a
while.

(Remember. If you are RATED in the plane and you have agreed that you are
PIC in advance, you can still log the time. That's a privilege of being
Captain
and letting your instructor be your co-pilot, even if he is an instructor.
He still can
log the time also because he is an instructor. That is one of his
privileges.)

Another important part of the XC hood work is that you build up some
endurance
on a 2-3 hour flight.

In the beginning, IFR can be tiresome, so you need to build up the
endurance. When
you do it for real, and are really in the soup, you are in it until you
break out. You
can't just take the hood off. So you need to build up your endurance. The
more
practice you get the better you can tolerate it.

Last, this actually builds your overall skills very quickly.

You might like to read how one pilot did it at
http://10day.cjb.net
(When the page comes up, wait a moment for the popup which is the story
of David Sears, a candidate for the US Air Force Academy who wanted
an instrument rating on his resume for his Congressional interview. David
did it in 7 days of flying with 3 days when the weather was too bad to
fly.).


  #9  
Old October 7th 04, 01:48 PM
Dave
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

What would you say is the best way to prepared for this with out going to
the flight schools classes.
( I live far enough away from there that if I make the trip I might as well
go flying, cuz I don't want to do it that often)
Apparently AOPA gave my name to Kings Schools and they had a salesman call
to see if they could sell me the DVD course.

I have been plodding through all the Gliems manuals. Any other ways? The
Kings school DVD's are another 1.5 hours of dual, they way I look at it, but
if they are super fantastic I guess I'll have to see about getting them.

--
Dave A
Aging Student Pilot
KFRG

"gatt" wrote in message
...

"C Kingsbury" wrote in message
ink.net...
In my experience the #1 time-delay comes from getting the written test

done.
If/when I decide to go for my commercial I'm not going to even start

taking
lessons until after I've done the written. Doing the same with my

private
&
instrument would have saved me 3 calendar months on each. And in

general,
the fewer calendar months you spend training, the fewer hours you spend

in
the airplane fixing things you forgot from previous lessons.


INDEED!

-c




  #10  
Old October 7th 04, 05:19 PM
C Kingsbury
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


It depends on what you need. I'm an information sponge and being 28 still
have the psychology of test-taking pretty fresh in my mind. All I needed was
practice and polishing to get the details right, so I used the Gleim
software for both my private and my instrument. It has a "learning" mode
where you go through the questions and it gives you an immediate explanation
of why your answer was right or wrong. Plus it keeps track of scores, so you
can see how you're doing. When you feel ready, it can do a full simulated
test session exactly like what you'll see in the test center.

I got most of my book learnin' from the Dogan book, and I was overall
pleased with it. Anything that the Gleim description or the book didn't make
clear I talked over with my instructor, and that took care of it. In the
end I got an 82, but by that point I simply wanted to pass and get the damn
thing over with as it was holding up my taking the checkride. I've taken
enough standardized tests to know what they do and do not measure
effectively.

Best,
-cwk.

"Dave" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
What would you say is the best way to prepared for this with out going to
the flight schools classes.




 




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