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#1
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regaining night currency but not alone
Jack and Jill are both private pilots, neither is a CFI. Jack is out of night
currency, Jill is current. Jack and Jill go flying at night under part 91, with Jack sitting in the left seat (I know it doesn't matter) and manipulating the controls, while Jill acts as PIC. 1) Can Jack log the time as PIC time? (I think yes, under the sole manipulator rule) 1a) Can Jill? (I think not if Jack does) 2) After Jack has done three night takeoffs and landings to a full stop under this scenario, is he current for carrying passengers at night? (it would appear to me to be so) 3) Has Jack violated the FARs pertaining to carrying passengers at night? (It would seem not, since Jill is the PIC and Jack doesn't even have to be a pilot) 4) Has Jill violated those FARs? (It would seem not, since Jill is night current) 5) If Jill is confident of Jack's flying, and is herself competent, is this stupid? (well, I suppose this depends on how well Jack and Jill fly) Jose -- (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address) |
#2
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Teacherjh wrote:
Jack and Jill are both private pilots, neither is a CFI. Jack is out of night currency, Jill is current. Jack and Jill go flying at night under part 91, with Jack sitting in the left seat (I know it doesn't matter) and manipulating the controls, while Jill acts as PIC. 1) Can Jack log the time as PIC time? (I think yes, under the sole manipulator rule) Yes. 1a) Can Jill? (I think not if Jack does) No. 2) After Jack has done three night takeoffs and landings to a full stop under this scenario, is he current for carrying passengers at night? (it would appear to me to be so) Yes. 3) Has Jack violated the FARs pertaining to carrying passengers at night? (It would seem not, since Jill is the PIC and Jack doesn't even have to be a pilot) No. Correct. 4) Has Jill violated those FARs? (It would seem not, since Jill is night current) No. 5) If Jill is confident of Jack's flying, and is herself competent, is this stupid? (well, I suppose this depends on how well Jack and Jill fly) Open for debate... Hilton |
#3
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#4
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Lack of night currency doesn't preclude acting as PIC. It only precludes carrying passengers. Jack is carryiing Jill, who is PIC. I say (and other posts agree) that she is not a passenger, and is not being "carried" by Jack (she is carryign herself, as PIC). One other question (the FAA always has "gotchas" If Jack (out of night currency) pays for the entire flight, is the non-equitable sharing of expense a problem? Same question if Jill (the acting PIC) pays for the entire flight. Jose -- (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address) |
#5
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Here is a more straightforward but frustrating version of the same problem. Suppose Jack and Jill are both private pilots and suppose neither is night current. It is legal for each one to go up solo and do 3 night landings for currency. It is NOT legal for them to go up together and each do 3 night landings for currency. Yet clearly it would be safer (although not legal) for them to go up together to do the 3 landings so that a night-inexperienced pilots has another set of eyes helping him/her out. -------------------- Richard Kaplan, CFII www.flyimc.com |
#6
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Yet clearly it would be safer (although not legal) for them to go up together to do the 3 landings The requirement isn't based on the safety of the flight, it is based on the danger to passengers. At least one of the pilots, on at least three of the loops around, is an innocent passenger. Not true of an acting PIC. Jose -- (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address) |
#7
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"Teacherjh" wrote...
Jack and Jill are both private pilots, neither is a CFI. Jack is out of night currency, Jill is current. Jack and Jill go flying at night under part 91, with Jack sitting in the left seat (I know it doesn't matter) and manipulating the controls, while Jill acts as PIC. First, 91.109(b) does not apply; Jill is not acting as a "safety pilot" for simulated instrument flight. How can Jill "act as PIC" while Jack is manipulating the controls?!? If Jill is "acting as PIC," how can she legally/rightfully allow a non-current person -- who admittedly is not comfortable flying the airplane at night -- to manipulate the controls, especially in critical operations such as takeoffs and landings? Since she is not a CFI, we cannot assume Jill has the ability to recognize a deteriorating situation and take control of the airplane in a reasonable manner. IMO, though 61.51(e) and 61.57 are not totally clear, their intent is reasonably clear to me when considered together. 3) Has Jack violated the FARs pertaining to carrying passengers at night? (It would seem not, since Jill is the PIC and Jack doesn't even have to be a pilot) How is Jill the PIC, if she is not performing the duties of the PIC? Why doesn't Jack have to be a pilot to operate an airplane? At the very least, the operation is a violation of 91.13(a). There are 2 simple options for accomplishing the requirements of 61.57 without question of legality: Jack goes around the patch for 3 landings at a familiar, prominent, well-lighted airport, then picks up Jill for the remainder of the flight away from the airport. If necessary, Jill operates the airplane from home airport to selected airport. Jack hires a CFI to go with him for a night refresher flight, to include 3 landings. Since reasonable options are available, there is no reason to use a questionable practice. 4) Has Jill violated those FARs? (It would seem not, since Jill is night current) She -- as "PIC" -- allowed a non-current pilot to perform critical operations and "act as PIC." |
#8
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How can Jill "act as PIC" while Jack is manipulating the controls?!?
The same way I can act as PIC while my non-pilot cousin acts the organic autopilot. In any case I was not invoking anything about a safety pilot. Jose -- (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address) |
#9
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"John R Weiss" writes:
First, 91.109(b) does not apply; Jill is not acting as a "safety pilot" for simulated instrument flight. But she *could*. This was recently pointed out to me at PJY as a way that two pilots out of night currency can legally fly together at night. Clever! I wouldn't have thought of it. Time to practice those zero/zero landings again... --kyler |
#10
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Here's an actual lab rat for you guys to dissect:
A couple of months ago, my wife's instructor wanted to get night current so she could go with my student pilot wife in one of our club planes. She isn't allowed by the club insurance to fly the airplane alone so I took her up, as I was current. I flew from the left hand seat; she wanted to land from the right as she would be doing with students. She "manipulated the controls" for three landings and we parked it. I considered myself to be PIC, so not a passenger, but she did the landings, so regained her currency. She did not "use" her CFII certificate in the sense of either of us logging it as dual time. This seemed quite logical to both of us, but of course it is usually futile to attempt logical analysis of government rules. Geo. Anderson |
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