Why did Bush join the national guard?

From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 9/8/2004 7:08 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: (B2431)
Date: 9/7/2004 11:01 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


There is the tip of the spear. Then there is everything else. The very best
are
at the tip of the spear. Where were you?


Arthur Kramer

If you were incapacitated somone
else on your plane would have gone forward and done your job.


Wrong. No one else on the crew was trained to operate a Norden. Guess you
don't
know much huh?


Arthur Kramer

It doesn't take much training to pickle when everyone else does. If you were
lead bombardier, according to many of your past posts you weren't very often,
and you were incapacitated another B-26 would take lead.

No I wasn't there, but you yourself have said that would be the case.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

From: Mark and Kim Smith
Date: 9/8/2004 3:14 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

ArtKramr wrote:

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: "Jack G"
Date: 9/7/2004 7:54 PM Pacific





Art,

Being a bombadeer / navigator is not like piloting anything.

Admit it Art, you were a just a crew member on an airplane flown by a real
pilot.



Do you know why they have pilots on bombers? Just for one reason which was
to
put a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have
gunners on a bomber? Just one reason. To protect that bombardier and get him
over the target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have fighter cover?
Just
to get a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. The pilot is only a bus
driver to deliver him where he can hurt the enemy. So don't make too big a
deal of pilots . Some are good and some are not..If you get one who can fly
a
good bomb run, not dump your gyro and keep the wings level so you don't
dump
bombs all over the landscape, you are lucky.But good bomb run pilots are not
all that easy to find. And as far as judging pilots performance on a bomb
run,
no one is more qualified to make that judgement than a bombardier. But this
is
a subject you would know nothing about.






Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Wow! Tell that to Paul Shorts face!

Get rid of all the useless people and how does the bombardier get to the
target??


Haven't you heard? There was no one else in the entire ETO. Art won that air
war all by himself.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
....
Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or Air Force?
why?


No mystery:

RUSSERT: Were you favor of the war in Vietnam?

BUSH: I supported my government. I did. And would have gone
had my unit been called up, by the way.

RUSSERT: But you didn't volunteer or enlist to go.

BUSH: No, I didn't. You're right.

Meet The Press
February 8th, 2004



"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out
with a shotgun in order to get a deferment.
Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I
chose to better myself by learning how to fly
airplanes."

George W. Bush, 1990
as quoted in The Houston Chronicle
May 8th, 1994.

--

FF

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
Date: 9/8/2004 5:30 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: .net


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

Never was in pilot traning.


I didn't say you were. I said it sounds like you're bitter over washing out
of pilot training and being made a bombardier.

Not everyone was qualified to be a pilot.


I'd say you are a living example of someone not qualified to be anything
military.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: (B2431)
Date: 9/8/2004 8:15 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

No I wasn't there, but you yourself have said that would be the case.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


That says it all.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 9/8/2004 5:22 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 9/7/2004 8:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

ArtKramr wrote:

A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you have
done
harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed
airliner.
Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is something
else.

Ahh, now we have a new Kramer version of combat. Now, to qualify, you
must
have
delivered explosive ordnance. C-47s flying over "the Hump" and
intercepted by
Japanese Zeros...not "real combat". C-130s landing in Khe Sahn during
artilliary and mortor fire...not combat. UH-60s inserting SF forces
behind
Iraqi lines before the beginning of Iraqi Freedom...not combat. Hell, Ed
Rasimus in an F-4E on MiGCAP over Hanoi...not combat. The list gets
shorter
and
shorter....


BUFDRVR



Don't try to mix Ed with the wannabbes on this NG. Ed fought the good
fight.
But why are you still on that eternal bomb run that never ends? You have
been
on that bomb run for years and never reached the target.

No, Bufdrvr has hit a few targets, and no doubt he demonstrated better
accuracy than you could ever have acheived (despite your whining
protestations that you *never* missed a target...yeah, right...). And you
curiously missed responding to his other examples of what you have termed
"non-combat" flying...I guess my brother was not in combat when he got shot
down during a Dustoff mission in Vietnam? So you are again lying...which
seems to be about all you are capable of doing anymore. Sad.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer


And your combat experience was what oh pathetic one?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 9/8/2004 5:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: Ian MacLure
Date: 9/7/2004 9:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in
:

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: (B2431)
Date: 9/7/2004 1:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

I'll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54s.


A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you have
done harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed

So being fired on multiple times doesn't count.
Taxiing in wearing substantial portions of your
deceased copilot and good friend doesn't count.
Having a second copilot killed during landing doesn't count.
Flying onto disputed airfields doesn't count?
Losing 20 ft of fuselage to an artillery round and flying whats
left of the airplane to Guam doesn't count?
So I guess whatever it was he was delivering under fire could not
have been that important.
Well, I'm glad you cleared that up.

I have a friend who was a C-47 driver on D-Day, dropped paras.
I guess what he did doesn't count.

A gentleman I sat next to in our town band went ashore with the
first wave on D-Day but he was only a doctor so I guess he doesn't
count.

airliner. Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is
something else.

Does the word tactical transport mean anything to you?
Do you know what day it is even?

IBM



There is the tip of the spear. Then there is everything else. The very
best are
at the tip of the spear. Where were you?

Then you must not have been at the "tip of the spear", being as you have
repeatedly proven to be anything but "the very best" (how can a pilot
washout call himself the "very best"?).

Brooks



Arthur Kramer



You weren't even good enough to make it to combat at all. How pathetic you are
little boy hiding under a desk while a war raged and men fought.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

I'd say you are a living example of someone not qualified to be anything
military.


You'd be wrong about that too.

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 9/8/2004 5:22 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 9/7/2004 8:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

ArtKramr wrote:

A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you
have
done
harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed
airliner.
Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is something
else.

Ahh, now we have a new Kramer version of combat. Now, to qualify, you
must
have
delivered explosive ordnance. C-47s flying over "the Hump" and
intercepted by
Japanese Zeros...not "real combat". C-130s landing in Khe Sahn during
artilliary and mortor fire...not combat. UH-60s inserting SF forces
behind
Iraqi lines before the beginning of Iraqi Freedom...not combat. Hell,
Ed
Rasimus in an F-4E on MiGCAP over Hanoi...not combat. The list gets
shorter
and
shorter....


BUFDRVR



Don't try to mix Ed with the wannabbes on this NG. Ed fought the good
fight.
But why are you still on that eternal bomb run that never ends? You
have
been
on that bomb run for years and never reached the target.

No, Bufdrvr has hit a few targets, and no doubt he demonstrated better
accuracy than you could ever have acheived (despite your whining
protestations that you *never* missed a target...yeah, right...). And you
curiously missed responding to his other examples of what you have termed
"non-combat" flying...I guess my brother was not in combat when he got
shot
down during a Dustoff mission in Vietnam? So you are again lying...which
seems to be about all you are capable of doing anymore. Sad.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer


And your combat experience was what oh pathetic one?

Combat experience is not required in order to properly define you as a
pathological liar. And are your veterans' benefits any different from
mine--no? Figures.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer

ArtKramr wrote:

There is the tip of the spear. Then there is everything else. The very best
are
at the tip of the spear.

C-47s delivered paratroopers the night before D-Day. The only other aircraft
airborne were allied fighters. Sounds like "tip of the spear" to me.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"